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And this is the liberals’ image of an ideal society.

Is there a difference between a mother killing her own children or someone killing anyone other than their own children?

A government attacking their own people is the “motherland” killing their own children. That is exactly why Tiananmen Square was such a horrid act. The death of 5000 people is bad as war between countries, it is outrageous when it is a government killing the people it is supposed to protect (the first job of legitimate government is to protect its own people). A government killing its own people? You don’t see a difference? Either you are naive or your world view is coming into conflict with common sense.

Merry Christmas Marshmallow, you are a rascal.

If you look at whatever ideologies and justifications were used by nazis or maoists, etc, you’ll probably find talk about how the targeted group is somehow “plotting against” the government. It’s hard to call that a “peace time” War exists when someone says it does. When the state declares a group to be an enemy, there’s no more peace. See “War on Terror” and “Sleeper Cells.” The war on terror will last for ever and ever because there could always be some more groups in hiding. As long as a paranoid government perceives a threat, there’s no peace. Krystalnacht didn’t happen in a time of peace because in happening it ended any peace.

If the above is too much of a stretch for you then explain the Ukraine and China for example.

BTW, it does appear at this point given what you have written that your are getting my point. Now for your point …

“My point is that in ancient times, the elite struggled with each other for regional power, and the guy who came out on top had his rivals killed.”
It is an interesting point. I acknowledged it earlier in my 2:51pm post. You are saying that the rise of the modern democratic process after American revolution has lead those dictatorial types in power to view the populace they rule in the same light as their personal rivals. Which since their rivals ‘need killin’ then the populace also ‘needs killin’. Is this assessment of your position correct?

“What’s it matter whether god was part of their equation or not?”
It does, but I want to first make sure we are in agreement as to what your and my positions really are. Talking past one another is something neither of us seek. It is also way way late. I’ll respond some more tomorrow.

You did not read what I wrote very well did you. I didn’t say you were wrong … I said that you have a different world view — you start with a different set of axioms. I also stated that people with differing axiom sets have trouble seeing the other side (that is true for all axiom sets from which people view the world, including the axiom set by which I live).

You should also note well that I did not address the post explicitly to you — it was “to” Jacob as a courtesy to him. You see, I think he also may be having trouble seeing the different axiom set from which he sees things, and why that makes all the difference in the world as to how you and he would interpret the exact same data. To someone in Nazi Germany (at least those that fell under the influence of the Nazi party) the problems of Germany were due to impure people within the country, and those that held back the Aryans from their “proper” place of dominance. Arguing with them would be useless, as they would (as we all) bend the world to fit their world view.

The reason why Jacob insists that there is a salient difference between Joe being killed by a violent revolt/war and being killed during a time of peace is that the difference is with the person doing the killing, not with the person being killed. I do tend to agree that, even if some killing occurred prior to this era, ethnic cleansing is more prevalent now that ever before. I do not believe this is just because of better communications, though better weapons could be part of the mix. I tend to think man is no better or worse today than ever before — that is mankind as a whole has been rotten at the core since being evicted from the garden.

BTW, it doesn’t take any “magic” as you put it to say the things Jacob has said are occurring are in fact happening. I believe I know Jacob is basing his world view from a view of the Christian Protestant Bible as a starting point. That axiom set has enough “freedom” within to allow for the current trend to be nothing more than the fall (humans being humans) working out at various times in various ways.

Jack — sorry — I used your name as one that has a differing world view from Jacobs as an example (which is likely true at least in part). The issue isn’t what the world view is, but that the world view is different. I may be mistaken, but I believe your world view is slightly different than Jacob’s.

The holocaust didn’t happen during a time of PEACE. I’m not suggesting that the people killed under Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot represented a threat to the regime. This was the justification that was used. Did every first born represent a threat to Herod? I think the first thing this Vlad guy did was to have all the other nobles in the region executed in order to consolidate power. Where they really threatening his rule? Who knows. My point is that in ancient times, the elite struggled with each other for regional power, and the guy who came out on top had his rivals killed. In modern times, when citizens have had more power in the political realm, violent leaders have looked at commoners as a threat (real or perceived) to their rule. There’s no PEACE times when the leadership is endlessly perceiving new threats. The bottom line is that this isn’t a new thing, but something that’s grown out of the cruel ruthlessness of the past. Why didn’t it happen in Rome or Greece? I don’t know, were Christians fighting an armed revolt against Nero?

Let me just say that it’s an interesting idea, but saying that this is an entirely new thing that’s driven by rulers not claiming a divine right or whatever doesn’t add up. Stalin, Hitler, Joshua, Herod, Dracula, Nero, Robespierre might have used different methods to slaughter innocents, what they had in common was they all had some idea that the ends justified the means. These guys were driven by the Dark Side (anger, fear, aggression), What’s it matter whether god was part of their equation or not?