Rainbow Coalition Dissolves With Rising Illegal Immigraton
January 23rd, 2008 by joe
An important new article is posted at City Journal:
Former mechanic Anderson felt the effects of low-wage immigrant competition in his old line of work. “I used to sell parts to body shops, and I knew Americans who were making $20 an hour repairing dented fenders,” he says. “Now, 95 percent of South Central L.A. body-shop jobs are held by recent immigrants making $7 or $8 an hour.” Says Joe Hicks, former chair of Los Angeles’s Human Relations Commission and now head of the nonprofit Community Advocates: “It’s hard to find a black face on a construction site or in a fast-food restaurant around here any more. People from the black community have noticed.”
Read it all. It’s a big article which covers economic and political competition, Hispanic racism, and the growing trend of black citizens waking up to the garden path their leaders have been trying to lead them down.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 23rd, 2008 at 5:24 pm and is filed under Campaign 2008, immigration. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I highly recommend everyone read this article in full.
What this article say’s to me is not about black and whites per say, but as Americans we need to take a stand and send all illegals home to their countries.
Not just those that come across our border, all those that have expired visas and have their employment contracts end.
If Americans continue to allow the illegals to remain and more to come into our country, we may as well kiss our nation good-bye…which is exactly what they want.
I for one do not want that, I want our AMERICAN CULTURE to remain intact.
So all free thinking people, liberals and democrats, think of it this way……..if you allow continuation of illegals into our nation, we will not have a nation any longer….as it stands now, it’s becoming our nation against all foreign nationals who enter into our country.
January 24th, 2008 at 12:11 am
I remember listening to one of those focus groups recently in NV right before the DEM primary. Union workers and other assorted Democrats. There was more than a few Hispanics and Obama was a nonstarter with them. “Are you kidding?!” was the response one the hispanics gave to the question would you vote for Obama. When asked why he changed the subject. The attitude was reflected in the other focus group members. Very revealing.
January 24th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Can the media possibly bury this issue for the next 10 months?
January 24th, 2008 at 5:53 am
In other news. . .
Conservatives agree; persuasive article in conservative publication designed to persuade, persuades them!
and. . .
Country created by foreign nationals is encouraged to turn it’s back on foreign nationals once and for all in an attempt to preserve what was created by foreign nationals!
Stay tuned for more exciting and salacious headlines!
January 24th, 2008 at 7:58 am
No one said you aren’t a dreamer, Joe. A race war between Latinos and blacks. How great that would be for you!
January 24th, 2008 at 10:11 am
That’s why I wrote the article.
January 24th, 2008 at 10:48 am
You mean like the ongoing race war in L.A. zimzo?
January 24th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Funny that when things are stareing you in the face for years; how they can be overlooked. That people are becoming more aware of the democrat/liberal/union agenda is uplifting. They just aren’t in anyone’s best interest but their own. I can only hope that this election year is a mass awakening for all. You can’t fool some of the people all of the time.
January 24th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
This is an issue I find fascinating. Can I ask, Joe, why you feel that African Americans and recent immigrants are competing for the same jobs?
January 24th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Read the piece.
January 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Read the article, Laura:
“A recent study by Harvard economist George Borjas and colleagues from the University of Chicago and the University of California estimates that immigration accounted for a 7.4 percentage-point decline in the employment rate of unskilled black males between 1980 and 2000. Even for black males with high school diplomas, immigration shrank employment by nearly 3 percentage points. While immigration hurts black and white low-wage workers, the authors note, the effect is three times as large on blacks because immigrants are more likely to compete directly with them for jobs.”
January 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
But wait, there’s more:
“A case study of Los Angeles janitorial services cited in a Government Accounting Office report captures the enormity of the shift. It began in the late 1970s, as several small firms began hiring Mexican janitors at low pay, prompting building owners to drop contracts with the companies that employed blacks in favor of the cheaper upstarts. As the immigrant-dominated firms grabbed more business, industry wages slipped from a peak of $6.58 an hour in 1983 to $5.63 an hour in 1985. The number of black janitors in L.A. plummeted from about 2,500 in the late 1970s to only 600 by 1985. Today, the city’s janitorial industry, like apparel manufacturing and hotel services, is almost entirely immigrant.”
January 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
ONCE AGIN I FIND ZIMZO EVASIVE AND COMBATIVE. TAKE A STAND AND RUN WITH IT ZIMZO.
FOR ALL OF YOU CENTERING ON THE BLACK VS HISPANIC ISSUE IN ARTICLE, GET A GRIP. I THINK JOE WAS POINTING OUT THAT IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT WHITE VS. HISPANIC, BUT THE FACT THAT HISPANIC’S MOVING INTO AND TAKING CONTROL OF NEIGHBORHOODS.
SO THINK ABOUT YOUR NEIGHBOR HOOD AND WHAT YOU
ARE WILLING TO GIVE UP.
January 24th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I read the article and it cited several reasons but the question is why YOU feel that African Americans are competing for the same jobs as recent immigrants?
What specific factors do you feel explain why there are so many unskilled African Americans?
Is not this a graver concern? Instead of concentrating on restricting immigartion should we not concentrate on improving that situation so that there are fewer low or unskilled African Americans?
As to neighborhoods that were primarily comprised of one ehtnicity and are now changing, the same was said of many parts of Northern cities as African Americans relocated from the South. Similar compalints have been made about various other ethnicities at various other times and locations throughout our nation’s history.
The article did not always claarly make the distinction between immigartion and illegal immigration either.
The angst of an individual and/or a group does not represent an entire race or segmant of a population.
Bythe way the Chinese exclusion act is widely accepted as being a racist blemish on our immigration history.
Article is intersting and I will read it again.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Here is the Executive Summary of what I find to be a fascinating and much more informative poll conducted by the New America Media titled:
Deep Divisions, Shared Destiny - A Poll of Black, Hispanic, and Asian Americans on Race Relations
http://media.newamericamedia.org/images/polls/race/exec_summary.pdf
January 24th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Um, Laura, while I linked to the article I must admit I did not actually write it - that was just a snide comment I made because Zimzo was being obtuse again. I linked to the article and it seems to be full of important information. Beyond that, I am not sure where my feelings come into the discussion.
January 24th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Well, Joe you clearly support the assertions of the author of article, which by the way is frought with problems that do not require great intellectual prowress to recognize and dispute.
I think your opinions are entirely relevant and I would hope that you would be capable of delving into and examining the issue to a much greater depth. You are so wordy after all. Why stop now?
The survey I cited is important as well and there was even one question that showed that a great number of blacks feel that the mainstream media is actually irresponsible in dealing with issues of race relations. I find this article you have linked to to be an example of that, though how mainstraem it is I am not sure. Even the caption of the photo provides a very obtuse explantion of racial gang warefare under a very provoking photo.
The description I quote below of the book that the auther of the article co-authered is an indication that this person has some controverial opinions (that go well beyond the issue of legal vs. illegal) that he clearly wishes to further in this article by not providing a broader context.
“The Immigration Solution proposes a policy that admits skilled and educated people on the basis of what they can do for the country, not what the country can do for them.”
January 24th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
“A case study of Los Angeles janitorial services cited in a Government Accounting Office report captures the enormity of the shift.”
I always love how one case study captures the enormity. ROFL! Jack, seriously, even you know better.
Alas, the persuasive argument! What can temper it?
January 24th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Joe:
Sadly, the answer to your question is yes. Like so many issues regarding race in America they don’t have to work very hard when many of the players are in denial, or at a minimum apoligists for the status quo.
Liberal black leadership in no way want to upset the liberal white power base when it comes to the issue of illegals. Rank and file low and middle class blacks are just going to have to suck it up. White liberals are engaged in yet another self annointed rescue of a whole new victim class, a class who if properly managed will bolster their electoral prospects for sometime to come. Liberals are wrong on almost ever issue, however, they are smart enough to read the demographics. Hispanic poulation is on the rise, black populations however are becoming static or declining. The Latino as a victim class to be saved and then asked to participate in their own salvation via the ballot box is a crucial part of the plan. It is not like we are witnessing anything new here. American liberals have attempted to co-op every ethnic group in the country in order to expand their own power and influence. This is and will always be about power.
There are two groups who the liberal or progressive power structure is willing to toss under the bus, blacks and Unions. Both groups have historically supported the left in the democrat party, however, with both groups numbers in decline the American left must now turn their gaze towards a larger subservient ally. Hispanics fill that role perfectly. They are becoming large in numbers, they tend to have larger families than anglos or blacks thus providing for a constant base. Newly arrived Hispanics are for the most part uneducated as compared to your typical American making them perfect for the lefts manipulation. The left wants them here working and eventually voting early and often.
Liberals are now seen as the provider or protector of Corporate Americas supply of cheap labor. Leftist can advocate for liberal immigration policies providing them votes to sustain power and remain politically competitive. In general these progressive institutions are good at demonizing corporate America when it suits their aggenda except when it comes to the issue of illegal labor. Wall street on the other hand is perfectly willing to keep their mouth shut and take one for the team as long as profits subsidized by cheap labor remain high and the costs associated with that labor is placed squarely in the lap of the middle class taxpayer in the way of additional social programs. Whats not to like ?
Black leadership ignores the disproportionate burden on low income blacks in order to keep their seat at the table, Hispanic leaders get a growing base of power, while the liberal elites dream of electoral majorities well into the future. What a scam !
January 24th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
ARE ALL OF YOU SO FAR INTO LEFT FIELD THAT
THIS ARTICLE IS BEYOND COMPREHENSION FOR YOU?
BY YOUR COMMENTS IT APPEARS SO.
January 24th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
To expound on what G. Stone wrote, this is playing out in the Democratic Primary as we speak. The Liberal Black Leaders in Congress and Liberal Black Activists continue to suck up to Hillary, and at the moment they are keeping their low-middle income black constituents with them. The media is very weary of the race (black/white) debate in the Democratic Primary and has literally sat by while Obama and Clinton clashed over it. In the past has been more than willing to exploit race (macaca, strom thurmond, etc) when politically expediant to the Democrats. Obama is being viewed skeptically as he has not paid his dues like other Black leaders, and they are not about to take their marching orders from someone that owes them NOTHING.
This will continue in the Illegal Immigration debate, as it already played out last summer during the Amnesty Bill debate. The courting of the Hispanic population by the Democratic Party will be aided and abetted by the media while the slight to previously exploited groups will be ignored. My prediction is you will see no one in either Black Leadership category correct or challenge this shift.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I think I probably fit that description myself by default.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
whoops! my last comment was directed at Marj.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
zimzo, anencephaly just fits you perfect.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
“[The] question is why YOU feel that African Americans are competing for the same jobs as recent immigrants?”
That’s just it, Laura, it is not a FEELING. Liberals argue by FEELINGS. Conservatives argue by facts and reason. The facts are that African Americans are competing for the same jobs as illegal immigrants. (It does not really matter whether they have come here recently or not.)
“What specific factors do you feel explain why there are so many unskilled African Americans?”
Culture.
“Is not this a graver concern? Instead of concentrating on restricting immigration should we not concentrate on improving that situation so that there are fewer low or unskilled African Americans?”
It is NOT an either/or question. We can do both. Perhaps the very article you cite has the reason you seek: “[Over] 60 percent of Blacks polled do not believe the American Dream works for them.” If one does not believe that the American Dream will work for him, why would he work for the American Dream?
January 24th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Jack, Feel - Think , synonymous in this case. Don’t get hung up on a word choice. I think that human beings are evolved to the extent that they think and feel simultaneously, and along with a few other complicated bio chemical processes are capable of acting.
And by the way, can you clarify for me if we are talking specifically about illegal immigration and the impact that it does or doesn’t have on African Americans, or are you talking about the impact of legal immigration as well?
But anyway Jack, you are heading in the direction I am heading. African Americans should not be competing with recent immigrants for unskilled jobs in any greater numbers than any other native born race or ethnicity. The fact that they are indicates problems that need to be addressed, not by eliminating the group of people that are competing for thsoe jobs but by addressing issues of culture, low expectations, education, etc.
Greg Stone - it seems to me as though you are portraying blacks as the victim class.
January 24th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Thinking and feeling are two different things, as anyone who has taken a Meyers-Briggs test can tell you. Liberals make their choices based on feelings, conservatives by thinking.
Illegal immigration. Our LEGAL immigration system has some skill-based quotas, ameliorating the impact on our unskilled workers.
We agree that there are problems in the Black community that need to be addressed. So what? Illegal immigration will always have a disproportionate impact on the native-born unskilled workers. Those workers could be Black, White, or Green. Only from the standpoint of political alliances does the race of those workers matter.
January 25th, 2008 at 9:30 am
If it is true, Jack, that your contentions are only based on facts, please tell us what those facts are based on. Studies on the impact of immigration on African-American unemployment have shown no impact. Here for example are the results one study:
“We find no statistically significant association among immigration, Black male employment rates, and Black male incarceration rates over the period 1962-2006″
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5594/
If you look at unemployment rates for Latinos and African-Americans they have tracked almost exactly for decades.
African-American unemployment rates have always been higher than for Latinos, whites and asians. You say the reason is culture. But whose culture? Why for example do African-Americans with college degrees still earn significantly less than white with college degrees? The one exception is in the category of blacks with PhDs because schools have made a concerted effort to hire African-Americans with doctorates. So maybe it’s not just black culture that is to blame.
And seriously your negative stereotyping of liberals is silly. If you are so concerned about facts, please cite some facts to prove that “liberals make their choices based on feelings.”
January 25th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Uh, Laurie. You stated illegal immigrant in comment 14 and then illegal immigration in comment 26. After all we have been thru with you and “undocumneted workers” I would have hoped that you would stick by your beliefs. Which way do you want it? Like all good liberals it appears that you want it YOUR way (whatever is good at the time). This is what is being explained above. The immigration issue is convienient to liberals in the ways stated. Bottom line is they pander to whomever will grow their party power. In this example, everyone looses. If you are going to champion the poor and uneducated, that has no color! And you always fight for the people who are citizens FIRST!
January 25th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Here is a story on some of the great results of ICE. American citizens detained and deported. And you want this program increased?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/25392.html
January 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Laura:
Victims to only a certain degree, small degree at that. Victims only to the extent that their own self proclaimed leadership have sold them down the river. My hesitation in granting them victimhood can be summed up by saying, You have nobody to blame but yourselves. When some knucklehead says follow me over the cliff , you are not required to do so.
For those who bought into Black exploitation and their portrayal as victims are now realizing they were taken for a ride. Their existence and station in life was used as a means to an end by those who really cared very little about advancing their cause. The civil rights movement aside, the new race hustlers did more harm than good.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:12 am
zimzo,
“”It’s like finding innocent people on death row,” Rosenbloom said. “There may be only a small number of cases, but when you find them you want to do everything in your power to make sure they get out.”
Mistakes happen. The case in question is a drug addict CREATING wild stories of who he is. But I guess you will only see him as a victim. Typical.
ICE is all we got for a massive problem. If you want these injustices to stop, I suggest you champion the fence and the illegal employment hiring program. That way the illegals leave on their own and no one gets harmed.
By the way. Back in 1941 their was a little problem with an unprovoked attack on the U.S. by the Japanese. Some American citizens were detained and put in camps. They (the government) did what they thought was right at the time and who can say what the possible outcome would have been had they not. I am sure you will be able to tell me.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Zimzo — thanks for the paper “The Relationship Among African American Male Earnings, Employment, Incarceration and Immigration: A Time Series Approach.” Seriously. It made a very interesting read. It uses very high-level statistical methods with which I am not familiar. I will have to look into them.
The salient point of the paper is that Black male earnings, employment, etc., do not have a statistically significant relationship to LEGAL immigration: “both studies may suffer from errors-in-variables bias since the
immigration variable includes only legal immigration.”
As I pointed out to Laura, the legal immigration system employs some skill-based quotas, ameliorating its adverse effects on unskilled labor.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Wow. For years liberals have been telling us to listen to the voice of blacks in America, but in an article which quotes numerous prominent black intellectuals, including the former head of the congressional black caucus foundation (hardly a right wing group), the former head of the LA human relations commission, a prominent black political scientist from Vanderbilt, a black activist and long time advocate for black economic advancement–an articlel that also sprinkles in some quotes about immigration from the likes of Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington, we’re now told by posters that this article is merely a “conservative” article advancing a conservative point of view, aimed at conservative readers.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
First of all - I know that most of the regulars on this site refuse to accept that someone who does not agree with their views could still be a conservative, but it is true. I am not a liberal. I’m not a social conservative, for sure, a fiscal conservative. Some of those same posters may even say that someone who accepts evolution could not possibly be a conservative
What can you do?
Anyway, I am only trying to clarify whether or not Joe, Jack, ACTivist et all are arguing that both legal and illegal immigration have a negative impact on African Americans. I think that is a legitimate question given the constant repetion here that LEGAL immigration is A-OK, it is illegal immgration that must be stopped. If this group here is also in favor of limiting legal immigration (which is the direction this article is heading), well, that’s a whole new game isn’t it?
usdasteve -”we’re now told by posters that this article is merely a “conservative” article advancing a conservative point of view, aimed at conservative readers.”
I, for one, never said that. I just pointed out the fact that the author of the article has very specific views and agenda re. immigration and the responsibilty of every informed reader is to understand the perspective of the author and to consider how those views might influence the piece.
Careful in the assumption that a handful of leaders reflect a majority opinion. Isn’t that essentially the point that Greg Stone is making? Also, I’m not impressed with the reference to Frederick Douglas and Booker T Washington because it is so far out of context. Wasn’t it Benjamin Franklin who railed against German Immigrants as being unwilling to learn English and generally dumbing down our society. Our greatest leaders have gotten things wrong on occasion.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
“If this group here is also in favor of limiting legal immigration (which is the direction this article is heading), well, that’s a whole new game isn’t it?”
We ALREADY limit legal immigration, Laura. We need to keep it limited, too. However, at present it is my opinion that the limits are too strict.
As zimzo’s article pointed out, LEGAL immigration seems to have no adverse effect on Black employment and incarceration rates. The primary factor found by the researchers was wages. As the prevailing wages decreased, Black employment decreased. The contention presented in the article to which Joe linked is that illegal immigration (which was not investigated in the paper) depresses the wages of unskilled labor.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
OK, to further clarify - do you favor reducing the current quotas, which seems to be the direction that the author of the aricle is heading by his selective use of quotes(which indeed is the position he espouses in his book)?
The article does not always make a distinction between illegal vs. legal:
“Though blacks have long worried that the country’s growing foreign-born population, especially its swelling rolls of illegal immigrants, harmed their economic prospects, they have also followed their political leadership in backing liberal immigration policies.”
I am glad to know that we agree that the current limits are too strict Jack. Of course we need limits, the alternative is an open border, which is unthinkable.
I don’t think that easing the limits is a position shared by Joe and certainly not by ACTivist. As you can see there are so many nuances to this debate that it behooves no one who wishes to be taken seriously to repeatedly and relentlessly generalize positions as anti-immigrant racist or conversely, liberal illegal alien lobbyists.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Jack writes: “As zimzo’s article pointed out, LEGAL immigration seems to have no adverse effect on Black employment and incarceration rates. The primary factor found by the researchers was wages. As the prevailing wages decreased, Black employment decreased. The contention presented in the article to which Joe linked is that illegal immigration (which was not investigated in the paper) depresses the wages of unskilled labor.”
So then doesn’t this make the case for legalizing the status of immigrants who are already here, which would eliminate the depression of wages caused by those who are paid less than the minimum wage. So if that is really your concern, Jack, then you should be supporting amnesty.
ACTivist your support for the internment of Japanese citizens during World War II, which most people see as a black mark on American history, gives us a pretty good idea of where you’re coming from.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
No, zimzo, it makes the case for enforcing the laws against hiring illegal workers. As you have pointed out yourself, most of these illegal workers already make more than minimum wage. Even the prevailing wage mentioned in Joe’s article is above minimum wage. When the prevailing wage is already above the minimum, there is no reason to expect that legalizing these workers would raise the prevailing wage. On the contrary, the employers would be required to pay payroll taxes on these workers, reducing the money available for pay.
Aside from that, granting amnesty to the illegal immigrants is patently unfair to those who have been waiting years to come here legally.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Laura, the article may be correct that there is a belief among Blacks that legal immigration also reduces their employment prospects, without that belief’s being correct. While I can believe that legal immigration may not have that effect, it is not an easy sell to an unemployed laborer. I have taken graduate-level statistics classes, and am not familiar with the techniques used in the article Zimzo linked. As that article pointed out, Borjas et al. (2006), using less sophisticated but generally sound methods, “concluded that as immigrants increased the supply of
workers in a particular skill group, there was a reduction in the wages of black workers in that group, a reduction in the employment rate, and a corresponding increase in the incarceration rate.”
Since that conclusion fits with “common sense,” it is difficult to overcome that perception. Even worse, the paper merely concludes that, “The null hypothesis cannot be rejected (Prob=88.7%).”
January 25th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Laurie,
I am for limits as I think growing this counrty too quickly without a planned course is nonsense. Like building too many houses and then saying “wow, we forgot about the infrastructure”. I agree with Jack that our immigration system needs some overhauling in relation to the time of application to the time of documents. Growing a nation for no warrented purpose fulfills nothing and has dire affects. Just like it wasn’t easy for Germany to meld East Germany back into the fold.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
zimzo,
Comical. I try to show that nothing is perfect and that with ideas come some unfortunate consequences. You somehow…scratch that. You prove true to form and twist what I didn’t say into your own meaning. Here is a statement that you can’t twist. I think that the commitment of zimzo to a mental institution, although a black mark on me as viewed by other whack liberals, would be a good thing for the nation.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
How does it make “the case for enforcing the laws against hiring illegal workers” if we actually had the resources and political will to do that (which we don’t)? You’ve totally lost me. And once again as your economic argument falls apart you go back to the “fairness” argument. If you want everything to be fair, why aren’t you a socialist? Or is that just another bogus argument?
ACTivist, how does the internment of the Japanese demonstrates that “nothing is perfect”? Are you saying that rounding up thousands of Japanese citizens was a boo-boo? That’s an intersting interpretation.
January 25th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Laura:
My position is simple. It is illegal immigration that constitutes the largest problem. Legal immigration can be managed by raising or lowering quotas as needs change and market forces warrent additional labor. It is illegal immigration that is also responsible for our inability to capture real data and hard numbers regarding immigrations efects ill or otherwise.
The study cited by Zimzo is probably solid information. It is also irrelevant. These are the kind of studies that are always trotted out in defense of illegal immigration in an attempt to blur the lines between illegal migrants and legal immigrants. Combining these two seperate groups as one for the purpose of political discussion is not only misleading but an absolute waste of time. The dishonest use of data is propaganda. It serves no good purpose other than too further an aggenda through the use misinformation.
Illegal migrants become undocumented workers who become undocumented immigrants who become immigrants who become undocumented citizens.
January 25th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
“How does it make ‘the case for enforcing the laws against hiring illegal workers’ if we actually had the resources and political will to do that (which we don’t)?” — Zimzo
Because if those laws are enforced, the illegal workers would not be driving down the price of labor. Certainly that is not lost on you?
“If you want everything to be fair, why aren’t you a socialist?”
No. Fairness is that you get what you work for, legally, and you reap the fruits of your labor. Socialism takes from those who work and gives to those who do not.
Not everything can be fair. Clearly, our being born in the United States is not fair. However, it was our ancestors that made the United States what it is. The ancestors of those in Latin America have made it what it is.
The socialist ideal is to make everyone equal, no matter how talented or hard-working they may be. That is not fairness.
More directly, granting amnesty would be capricious. If there is anything the laws cannot be, it is capricious.
January 25th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
“but in an article which quotes numerous prominent black intellectuals, including the former head of the congressional black caucus foundation (hardly a right wing group), the former head of the LA human relations commission, a prominent black political scientist from Vanderbilt, a black activist and long time advocate for black economic advancement–an articlel that also sprinkles in some quotes about immigration from the likes of Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington, we’re now told by posters that this article is merely a ‘conservative’ article advancing a conservative point of view, aimed at conservative readers.” - usadasteve
Aren’t you a fun one? You are absolutely right! Exactly. The article is by nature persuasive. You should look up the Manhattan Institute, an organization/thinktank dedicated to pushing conservative policies and agendas. What that has to do with race, in your mind, I don’t know; you are the one bringing up the racial issue. But yes, it is a persuasive piece, categorically.
January 25th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Haven’t we become quite the wiseacre!
January 25th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
When the illegals came for the blacks,
I remained silent;
I was not a black.
When they locked up the orientals,
I remained silent;
I was not an oriental.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
You are priceless, oh bulletproof one.
January 26th, 2008 at 2:37 am
“Haven’t we become quite the wiseacre!”
become? Oh you wait, brother, I’m just getting started. . .
January 26th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
10 ft, that was lame. It wasn’t even funny.
January 26th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
G Stone- your position is not simple. It is amazingly both convoluted and inane.
“The study cited by Zimzo is probably solid information. It is also irrelevant.” It is irrelevant to you perhaps, but it is ceratinly not irrelvant to the original post given that the article Joe has provided does exactly what you describe, “Combining these two seperate groups as one for the purpose of political discussion is not only misleading but an absolute waste of time”
Thanks for helping to further my point which is that the article blurs legal and illegal immigration in an attempt to further a specific agenda.
January 26th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
“The dishonest use of data is propaganda. It serves no good purpose other than too further an aggenda through the use misinformation.” In what way has this data been misused?
I would say that in this article the almost exclusive use of “perceptions” and gross generalizations, tempered only by a couple of studies to which no reference is provided, not even a proper title (could anyone find one for me please?) truly serves no other purpose than to advance an agenda through the use of misinformation.
Jack - perceptions can indeed be hard to overcome but that is no reason to throw in the towel and abandon facts.
January 26th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
The Manhattan Institue has an excerpt from what looked to be a really interesting discussion on immigration in the US:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cb_50.htm
It highlights the difficulties in even discussing the issue, which are clearly apparent here.
January 26th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
“Jack - perceptions can indeed be hard to overcome but that is no reason to throw in the towel and abandon facts.”
I entirely agree. Do not dismiss the evidence that illegal immigration reduces wages for unskilled labor, just because some study find no such result of LEGAL immigration. Even Adam Smith wrote that an influx of unskilled worked reduced the wages of those workers.
January 26th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Well, your not gonna hear me say that we should increase the flow of illegal immigration!
January 26th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Laura:
I was speaking to the study introduced by zimzo in which he (it) was comparing apples to oranges.
The point being that often those in favor of apples bring in studies or data pertaining to oranges in an attempt to justify their position.
January 26th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
way to go! you took one word from one comment on one blog and derived, “Liberals make their choices based on feelings, conservatives by thinking”
typical Jack, basing arguments on grand generalizations!
January 26th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Marshmallow,
Actually I think he came to that conclusion a long time ago, based om multiple instances of feeling of logic. Laura’s observation simply tripped a memory. I think you are extrapolating boldy at this point as well.
January 27th, 2008 at 2:26 am
typical Jacob
January 27th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Either way G. Stone, you made a good case against the article.