Panic In Postville
May 20th, 2008 by Nan
A Guard the Borders Blogburst guest post by Nancy Matthis of ADMC
The Federal immigration raid last Monday in Postville, Iowa evoked all the stereotypical dramas — illegal aliens, identity theft, stolen Social Security cards, underage workers, worker abuse, a drug lab, a local school system burdened with illegal Hispanic children, a Protestant (mostly Lutheran) small town co-opted by Jewish business interests, Jewish businessmen skirting the law to turn an extra buck, a Catholic church offering sanctuary, an American labor union pitted against the Jewish businessmen who were hiring the cheaper illegal labor, a clash between two US government agencies with competing jurisdiction, pandering politicians scrambling to collect points with the Hispanic vote, liberal sympathizers supporting illegals in suing the government, foreign consulates sticking their noses in, protests that the civil rights of these criminal invaders have been violated and finally the WaPo putting a liberal spin on the news.
It is the stuff of opera, but this plot would be difficult to stage, because there are so many sub-themes that an audience could not follow the action. Ditto for the American public, trying to follow this in the mainstream news media that omit relevant background out of political correctness.
Illegal Aliens
Last Monday, on May 12 at 10 AM in the morning, federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents raided the world’s largest kosher meat packing plant, located in Postville, Iowa. From the Waterloo/Cedar Falls Courier:
Federal agents converged on the grounds of the Agriprocessors meat-packing plant in Postville at 10 a.m., rounding up Hispanics on investigations of identity theft, use of stolen Social Security cards and for people in the county illegally. As many as 300 people were arrested….
The raid by agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement was the largest such operation in Iowa history, said Matt M. Dummermuth, U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Iowa.
He said the raid at the Agriprocessors Inc. plant was part of an investigation that started in October and came after months of planning. Agriprocessors is the world’s largest kosher meatpacking plant….
Underage Workers
Prior to the ICE raid, the Iowa state labor department served a subpoena on the local school district for student information. From The Des Moines Register:
School officials in early April were served with a 21-point subpoena from Iowa Division of Labor Services seeking the records of Postville middle and high school students and information about some school employees, the district’s superintendent said.
….
The article goes on to note that school guidance counselor Ron Wahl hired some students, and that he in turn was involved with Agriprocessors. His computer and records were also seized.
Education Week reports:
In fact, 12 minors were arrested at the plant during Monday’s raid, according to federal officials….
Michael A. Olivas, a law professor at the University of Houston who specializes in immigration law, [e-mailed]. “I am not against legitimate law enforcement, including enforcement of child labor laws…. If that is accomplished by a legitimate subpoena, I assume it has met the test of such requirements. That it involves immigration … does not change the basics.”….
And from WHO TV in Des Moines comes this report:
It turns out illegal immigration may not have been the only illegal thing going on at Agriprocessors in Postville. According to Dave Neil, the Iowa Labor Commissioner, his department has “an on-going investigation” into child labor and wage violations there.
According to Iowa law, people under the age of 18 are prohibited from working “in or about slaughtering and meat packing establishments.” But rumors that teens were working at Agriprocessors and getting paid off the books had been circulating for months….
Worker Abuse
Allegations surfaced that the illegal Hispanic workers, who would not dare to complain for fear of being deported, were being physically abused by their Hassidic supervisors. These were taken into account in the warrant for the ICE raid. The weblog Cedar River Salmon has been following the story:
Postville, Iowa is seemingly the picture of diversity, but underneath it is an example of multiculturalism gone bad…. Mexicans have become the slave labor of an industry that was once the economic lifeblood of many Iowans and their communities…. In one case, a supervisor covered the eyes of an employee with duct tape and struck him with a meat hook. The worker, who had entered the country illegally from Guatemala, was not seriously injured. He declined to report the incident for fear of losing his job….
The Drug Lab
Jewish Telegraph, the self-proclaimed “global news service of the Jewish people,” admits:
Feds: Drugs made at kosher meat plant
Federal authorities charged that a methamphetamine laboratory was operating at the nation’s largest kosher slaughterhouse and that employees carried weapons to work.
The charges were among the most explosive details to emerge following the massive raid Monday at Agriprocessors in Postville, Iowa.
But not to worry, the local Rabbi hastens to add. The meat is still kosher:
Rabbi Moses Weissmandel, the supervising rabbi at Agriprocessors in Postville, Iowa, called this morning to categorically refute every allegation made this week by government investigators — except the illegal worker business. “That’s not my department,” Weissmandel said.
What is his department is the rabbinical staff, some 40 rabbis responsible for the actual slaughter of meat and for supervising the plant to make sure everything’s kosher. He claimed his rabbis provide round-the-clock supervision, and that none of the allegations – among them that workers were producing drugs on site, and that rabbis abused the workers with meat hooks – are true.
“I categorically say it’s false, it’s not true, it’s a lie,” Weissmandel said. “I have my rabbis supervising 24/7. We supervise every inch of that place in order to be sure that the place is totally kosher.”
The School System
After the raid, fully half of the school children were absent:
Half of the school system’s 600 students were absent Tuesday, including 90 percent of Hispanic children, because their parents were arrested or in hiding.
In an article mentioning Iowa’s difficulties in coping with English as a Second Language (ESL) students, Edutopia notes:
Habla Ingles?
The influx of English-language learners … into communities across America has created new and unprecedented challenges for administrators and teachers, many already struggling with overcrowded classrooms, dwindling budgets, and strict performance standards for their students. Waves of immigration once limited to large cities such as New York, Miami, and Los Angeles are now reaching into … pockets of the heartland, bringing with them children whose needs go beyond language to issues of poverty and lack of stability, often associated with minimum wage or migratory employment.
CityTownInfo reports that Postville has a media family income of $40,125. Sperling’s reports a population of 2,314. If 600 of these are students (and that number only counted the public school population) then there are less than 1700 potential wage-earners to support approximately 300 expensive ESL students. Discounting the illegal immigrants under the radar who do not pay taxes and the stay-at-home moms, one can postulate a very expensive educational burden on the remaining legitimate workers/taxpayers.
Stealing A Small Town
The pain of the original, mostly hard-working Lutheran residents of this small mid-western town cries out from a lost website, hacked off the Internet but still partially available in Google cache:
What Happened To Postville? — Basically some New York Hassidic ‘Flim-Flam’ artists, walked into a small Iowa town, bought off the local politicians, and established a giant slaughterhouse. They quickly flooded the plant with Mexican, Guatemalan, and Chinese immigrants. The Rubashkin Family quickly took control of the town, and now it’s a cross between Krakow, and Mexico.
What Is Agri-Processors? — AgriProcessors bought a old processing plant and converted to a kosher meat processing plant for beef, veal, lamb, chicken and turkey.
Postville’s Only Employer — In 1988, Rubashkin and 300 Hasidic rabbis from the U.S., and Tel Aviv, came to Postville (Pop 1378), and bought a shuttered plant. The Jews despised the locals, started their own school, and refused to mix. Today the town has 2352 residents, and the plant employees 800.
Who Runs Postville — Mayor John P Hymen, and the town council of fellow Hassidics….
Skirting The Law
Trouble with the slaughterhouse is nothing new. The local paper reports:
Postville plant has record of violations, reprimands
The company has a long history of citations and fines from state and local officials for violation of labor, food safety and environmental laws….
Company officials admitted in federal court last year that they knew some employees at distribution centers in Brooklyn, N.Y., were using false Social Security numbers, according to court documents….
In April 2000, up to 40,000 gallons of turkey blood spilled into a stream near Postville. The spill was blamed on a malfunctioning pump….
The list of atrocities and violations is too long to include here, but readers can check the reference for more of this disgusting story. More details of specific violations are given in this article.
Catholic Church Sympathizes Panders To Illegals
The local paper notes that the Archbishop rushed into town to offer support to the illegals seeking sanctuary in St. Bridget Catholic Church in Postville:
Dubuque Archbishop Jerome Hanus will celebrate Mass in English and Spanish at 4:30 p.m. Saturday at St. Bridget Catholic Church in Postville.
The Postville raid and fedral Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency actions “highlight once again the need for comprehensive immigration reform,” Hanus said earlier in the week. “Families have been disrupted; parents and children are filled with fear. Many are uncertain whether their loved ones will be arrested, imprisoned indefinitely or deported.”….
No mention from the good archbishop of the fact that the reason these people are living in a state of uncertainty and fear is because … HELLO, THEY BROKE THE LAW BY COMING HERE and by using false or stolen documents.
Conflict With The Union
In constant conflict with organized American labor over pay and safety violations, AgriProcessors just lost another round with the United Food and Commercial Workers Union this past January. The premise of the company’s case will crack you up, dear readers. Agriprocessors held that their workers were not eligible to vote to join the union because they were illegals!
It has not been a good week for AgriProcessors, the world’s largest kosher slaughterhouse. …the company recently lost an appeal in federal court and continues to field attacks from the slaughterhouse workers’ union.
Last week, a federal court of appeals rejected AgriProcessors’ claim that workers in a Brooklyn distribution center should not be allowed to unionize because many of them are undocumented aliens. The decision ended a two-year court battle.
Conflicting Enforcement Interests
The United Food and Commercial Workers union (and, as a derivative, federal labor interests) was counting on the testimony of illegal workers at the Postville Agriprocessors plant in its ongoing battle with the company. Labor charged
“that the immigration raid disrupted a separate U.S. Labor Department investigation into alleged child labor law violations and other infractions.”
Liberal Sympathizers Sue The Government
You are going to love this. Three of those arrested (note the names) — Antonin Trinidad Candido, Roman Trinidad Candido and Maria del Refugio Masias — have filed a lawsuit against ICE on behalf of an “unspecific number of detained immigrant workers” courtesy of two law firms located in Omaha, Nebraska, — Peck Law Firm and Dornan and Lustgarten Law Firm PC, LLO. Americans for Legal Immigration (ALIPAC) has coverage:
A federal class action lawsuit filed Thursday by immigrants arrested in the Postville raid allege Agriprocessors acquired false identification for workers, along with numerous allegations of abuse from supervisors….
And, from the Peck Law Firm mission statement:
We believe that every person who is pursuing the dream of coming to the United States should be treated with dignity and respect throughout the immigration process.
We seek to create a positive atmosphere where our clients’ hopes and dreams are matched only by our dedication and excitement from success.
We believe that community education on immigration issues is essential to our nation’s understanding that from diversity comes strength….
Note that, even though this is a “law” firm, their approbation tacitly includes illegals.
The Obligatory Protests Begin
The WCF Courier reports:
Dozens protest immigration raid
More than 150 people marched Monday night in a peaceful but raucous protest outside of National Cattle Congress.
For two hours, demonstrators marched, chanted and waved flags along the sidewalk that runs along NCC grounds, where detainees from the immigration raid in Postville were being held.
At times, they turned towards federal agents on the other side of the barbed wire fence to chant slogans like “ICE go home.”….
Note to protestors — you are the illegal invaders, and ICE is OUR law enforcement. How about you go home?
Veronica Retuer-Villagrana, 17, said she was upset because most illegal immigrants stay out of trouble.
“We come here to work, not be criminals,” she said….
Note to Veronica — you have already broken our laws by coming here illegally. What is your definition of criminal?
Left-Biased Media Spin Begins
Today, the left-leaning Washington Post weighed in, typically beginning their coverage with a title criticizing law enforcement and an opening tear-jerker anecdote sympathetically told from the law-breaker’s point of view:
Immigration Raid Jars a Small Town
Critics Say Employers Should Be Targeted
By Spencer S. Hsu | Sunday, May 18, 2008Antonio Escobedo ran to get his wife Monday when he saw a helicopter circling overhead and immigration agents approaching the meatpacking plant where they both work. The couple hid for hours inside the plant before obtaining refuge in the pews and hall at St. Bridget’s Catholic Church, where hundreds of other Guatemalan and Mexican families gathered, hoping to avoid arrest.
“I like my job. I like my work. I like it here in Iowa,” said Escobedo, 38, an illegal immigrant from Yescas, Mexico, who has raised his three children for 11 years in Postville. “Are they mad because I’m working?”….
The WaPo is being egregiously disingenuous. It is a long and difficult process to bring charges against an employer, and costly to the taxpayers. But it is easy to determine whether an individual is in this country legally or not, and so the roundup of illegals is the quickest and most cost-effective way to tackle the problem of illegal immigration short-term.
Describing A “Clash Of Cultures”
The whole sorry drama is spelled out in a book by secular Jew Stephen Bloom, a professor at the University of Iowa. From Publishers Weekly:
Bloom’s account of a vicious clash between the residents of a small, intensely Christian town and the group of Lubavitcher Jews who open a highly successful kosher slaughterhouse there is a model of sociological reportage and personal journalism. In 1987, after a Hasidic butcher from Brooklyn bought a slaughterhouse in Postville, Iowa, and began to relocate Jewish and immigrant workers to the area, the town began to change. While some residents were suspicious and anti-Semitic, most were happy to see the town rise above its previous financial destitution. But the Lubavitchers, who traditionally live and work within their own closely knit communities, were not interested in fitting into Postville, and many were dismissive of, or overtly hostile to, its original citizens. After the Lubavitchers started buying real estate and exerting greater influence on the town’s finances, longtime Postville residents began to feel marginalized, yet their reactions caused the Jews to become more isolationist. The slaughterhouse also caused problems: workers were paid below minimum wage and were uninsured, women workers were sexually harassed and fighting among the (often illegal) immigrant workers escalated. Finally, the town took legal action to gain more control over the slaughterhouse. Bloom, a professor at the University of Iowa, writes cleanly and with great insight and temperance about these events….
Calling this a “clash of cultures” is a bit too kind, and is the viewpoint of a sympathetic apologist. This is really the story of all the things that go wrong when an entire town looks the other way while the laws of our country are broken, due to economic self-interest. Then when their chickens … er, bloody turkeys … come home to roost, they realize too late that they have sacrificed their lovely little mid-western rural American iconic town. Too bad for them. They were willing to ignore the rule of law, and this is what they got.
Final thoughts — after reading the entire list of violations cited in the references included in this article which would, as the saying goes, “gag a maggot” I am left wondering, “Who would eat this meat?”
Last Monday’s raid on the Agriprocessor slaughterhouse unveiled an operatic American illegal immigration drama like no other. One is almost tempted to draft José Plácido Domingo Embil to sing the title role.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 20th, 2008 at 12:29 am and is filed under Den of Thieves, immigration. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Nan, quite an impressive piece of reporting. I am guessing this drama will garner more than the usual amount of outrage, because on top of the standard illegal-migration angle political incorrectness you have included the “Jewish” parts of the story.
My take is the interlopers could have been of any ethnicity - and ethnicity in fact has nothing to do with the tragedy in Postville. It would have been equally accurate to describe the meat plant operators simply as “Profiteers.” But as the report in the Jewish press confirms, in reality this is in large part a story relevant to Jewish people conducting business in Postville.
They could have been natural resources barons or construction companies or halal meat companies taking advantage of the town, but in this case the profiteers happened to be in the kosher field.
Thank you for laying all this out.
May 20th, 2008 at 8:56 am
A new low for Novatownhall. An anti-Semitic post tagged under the category “Den of Thieves.” The term “den of thieves,” of course, has a long anti-Semitic history, going all the way back to St John Chrysostom, who wrote in his “Six Homilies Against the Jews”: “Jews worship the devil: their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition! Why are the Jews degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ.”
The idea that a “mostly protestant” town has been “co-opted by Jewish business interests” echoes the worst anti-Semitic stereotypes of greedy Jewish interlopers invading a Christian town.
And just to make sure we didn’t get the code words the author of this post used, she goes on to say that “hard-working Lutheran residents” were taken advantage of by “Hassidic ‘Flim-Flam’ artists.”
And yet confronted with the obvious anti-Semitism of the post, Joe tries to defend it by saying that “interlopers could have been of any ethnicity - and ethnicity in fact has nothing to do with the tragedy in Postville” even though the author makes a big point of the Jewishness of these “interlopers.”
Just when I think anti-immigration activists could not possibly sink any lower…
May 20th, 2008 at 9:52 am
zimzo,
You’re back! And no wiser for your travels from what I can see. Finding bigotry behind every bush, looking for something to be enraged at, and finding it, even when nothing is there. I hope you are in good health, physically anyway.
The facts on the ground are correct regarding Iowa and the drama over in the meat packing plant. As for your charge of antisemitism: it is laughable, but, it is also vintage zimzo. Nan was obviously amused by all the stereotypes coming together in this sordid little opera in the Midwest.
Of course you you miss the humor, obviously your built to low, the fast ones go right over your head. As for the link between ‘den of thieves’ and antisemitism, never heard of it, do you have a link?
as for:
“The idea that a “mostly protestant” town has been “co-opted by Jewish business interests” echoes the worst anti-Semitic stereotypes of greedy Jewish interlopers invading a Christian town.”
Hysterical as ever.
And:
“Just when I think anti-immigration activists could not possibly sink any lower…”
Nonsense, you have no perceived lower limit for our behavior. Next time please type ’tisk tisk’ at the end of your blarney.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Heh, I thought it would’ve taken someone posting on the homosexuality issue to get you back here.
I stated my perspective on the story, which is something that actually occurred pretty recently, and on Nan’s telling of it. Take it however you want.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Nan has a good comment on the ethnic/religious issue over at her Web site, worth reading before anyone lets Zimzo’s agitprop go to their heads:
http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/?p=1707
May 20th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Zimzo, please be assured that I had no anti-Semetic attitude in writing this. But as a blogger, I do not have to sacrifice telling some dimensions of the story out of political correctness, as the media do.
The three-way cultural divide — among the original Lutherans, the Hassidic Jews who took over the town but remained aloof and separate, and the illegal Hispanics and Chinese who were imported to be exploited — is the key to understanding the background to the immigration raid.
I don’t want our readers to think that I was singling out a particular religious group for criticism. The Protestants looked the other way while the laws were broken, the Jews imported illegals, forged documents, and exploited the workers, and the Catholics pandered to the illegals. Plenty of blame for all.
In the end, though, it is not about these particular denominations. It is the tragedy that results when people think they can sacrifice the rule of law for expediency. Short time gains, maybe, but long-term disaster.
In a different geography it could have been Sunnis, Shiites, and Christians; or cattle ranchers, crop farmers, and land developers; or Basques and Spaniards; or Irish and English; or French and British Canadians; or Dutch colonialists and South Africans; or British, Hindus, and Muslims. The operatic drama comes when expedient but illegal activity is played out against a background of sharp cultural divide.
The knee-jerk reaction that any mention of ethnic or religious difference must necessarily reflect bias shows the extent to which the mainstream media have brainwashed Americans. We must be able to speak about all the variables impacting a problem in order to find solutions.
If inner city blacks are disproportionately committing crime, then we need solutions that target that demographic. If terrorists who blow up commercial planes are disproportionately young Muslim men, then we do not need to spend our surveillance dollars monitoring the activities of elderly white nuns. A little common sense is called for here.
Among the sixty or so contributors to American Daughter there are Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Bahais, and Zoroastrians. The only reason we do not have Hindus and Buddhists is because I have not found any to recruit yet who fit our editorial style and subject venues. ADMC has a global readership, is read in translation in many languages, is quoted as an authority in forums in many other cultures and languages. And, in fact, my second in command at ADMC, and my dearest friend in cyberspace, is Jewish.
We take our blogging seriously. We never pull our punches. We tell it like it is. So we have become a more comprehensive source than the mainstream media for stories such as this one.
In the end, we are solutions oriented. And you cannot get an accurate solution to a problem unless you include ALL of the variables that are input to the equation. We diligently try to do that in our reporting.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Nan,
The gnat that you here buzzing in your ear is a nuisance but harmless. Wherever zimzo was he probably got kicked out so “the chicken has come back to roost”.
Enlightening montage of articles for a town’s 20 year history. Being as how the population is low and there seems to be but one employer, I feel some good data can come from this and be extrapolated to fit other areas and circumstances. It really is of no surprise. But another tale in the woes of illegal immigration and the employers who help promote and burden the situation.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:32 am
American Daughter,
Your post to zimzo is but a waste of time. He is not interested in truth or logic. As there is no cure for rabies, you treat the symtoms but the disease remains. zimzo sees prejudice behind every bush and around every corner and that is just the way it is.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:41 am
American Daughter,
Well said!! How refreshing.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Jacob, I’ve missed you terribly. It’s pretty hilarious of you to accuse me of “finding bigotry under every bush” after all of your diatribes about how Barack Obama is a bigot. Apparently only you are the arbiter of bigotry. As far as never hearing the term “den of thieves” connected to anti-Semitism, I provided an example in my comment. If you want more, there is something called Google and I’m sure you have a library nearby, which you might want to use occasionally.
American Daughter, you trot out the hoariest of anti-semitic tropes and then predictably you accuse anyone who calls you on it “politically correct,” which is standard procedure for someone defending their bigotry these days.
If the geography had been different and you focused on ethnic stereotypes of those groups, if, say, you claimed that Irishmen were drunks or that Asians were inscrutable or that blacks were lazy, I would have called you on that as well. You might want to reflect on why you so easily fell into repeating anti-Semitic stereotypes instead of blaming others for being too sensitive. When you then go on to register support for ethnic profiling, you imply that indeed you believe the stereotypes of Jews that you you repeated in your piece. Are you saying that Jews are greedy and we should waste money policing the greed of other ethnic groups?
Then as if that weren’t enough you trot out the “some of my best friends are Jews” defense. Does your friend believe that Jews are greedy, too?
And finally, Joe, even you recognized that Nan’s piece was problematic, which is why you rushed to defend it. However, I believe you added the “den of thieves” tag to the post and I wonder why you would have added that tag, when I know for a fact you are well versed in the history of Christianity and I should think know something about anti-Semitic theology as well. It is as if you were unconsciously piling on the anti-Semitism you already realized was in the piece. Though perhaps I give you too much credit.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Sad that this deteriorated into religious diatribe. For me the BIG queston is:
HOW WILL THE EMPLOYER BE PUNISHED? And if he is NOT, WHY NOT ???
May 20th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Too much psychology for me. Den of Thieves is the category for people capitalizing on illegal immigration, check it out. I don’t have a strong background in anti-Semitic theology.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
NoVisa,
“Sad that this deteriorated into religious diatribe. For me the BIG queston is:
HOW WILL THE EMPLOYER BE PUNISHED? And if he is NOT, WHY NOT ???”
I applaud your statement. I will agree with you completely that it has been sidetracked. As liberal as I feel you are, even you can see what an ignorant bigot liberal like zimzo can do to a pretty straight-foward story.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Oh - welcome back, anyway. Hope all is well with you. I think I’ll be seeing Jon in a couple weeks.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
” Are you saying that Jews are greedy”
Not only that but cheap, miserly, cannabolistic and cut-throat as well. Especially from New York (or the transplanted ones in Florida). You betcha!!!!!!
May 20th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Joe, perhaps I would have been spared some, but certainly not all, of Zimco’s ire if you had used the same category tags that I use for this series: “Guard the Borders Blogburst” and “Illegal Immigration.” Most folk looking in search engines for these articles wouldn’t think to look under “Den of Thieves” anyway!!
Zimco, the origin of the phrase actually comes from traditional Jewish usage, not from latter day anti-Semites. It echoes in Western literary circles because Jesus (Jewish fellow) used it — “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
Lovisa, As I explained in the article, it is not very cost-effective to prosecute employers, while it is easy to prove that someone is in the country illegally. Employers pay a fine, and both the government and the company are happy with this, as the government doesn’t have the trouble of a court case and the employer gets off easy. In this particular case, however, several prosecutions against individual officers of the company are planned, because an irate and aware public is watching. No thanks to the MSM, but the bloggers are raising public awareness about all the aspects of the alien invasion and putting pressure on elected officials.
ACTivist, thanks for your supportive comment. I will still try to reason with Zimco, however. I believe that there is hope for every cognizant (and I realize I am using the term loosely) human being. My work is never influenced by prejudice or emotion. I have spent my life as a physicist, and all my reasoning is data driven. I have been excoriated by experts with agendas, and have found that factual evidence and experience usually prevail. Sometimes it just takes a long time for detractors to see the light. As they say, a liberal who gets viciously mugged may become a conservative.
And jacob, bless you!
May 20th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Nicely explained, Nan.
Yes, it certainly would have avoided a lot of contention this morning if I had not checked the Den of Thieves box and just left it with illegal immigration!
But after reading your piece it seemed perfectly appropriate to my concept of the D of T category so I did not think twice about adding it - and I’m sticking with it.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Joe,
I do not think that you need to worry about the the den of thieves bit. This expression appears in the gospels of Mark and Matthew. Both of these gospels were written almost three centuries before the birth of John Chrysostom, I would assume, that as the archbishop of Constantinople, he was aware of the existence and the use of this phrase in the New Testament.
If you actually read the Homilies Against The Jews, where den of thieves is used (homily #6 of 8), it appears to reference the gospels to support his statements.
Don’t you just hate it when someone distorts history in an attempt to make a point where none exists ?
May 20th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
jacob,
here you go mate :
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/0386_chrysostom_adversus-judeaus.html
May 21st, 2008 at 5:06 am
Well, of course, the phrase “den of thieves” comes from the Bible, Dan. The idea that the Jews killed Christ and Christ’s attacks on the Pharisees also came from the Bible and were also used to justify Christian ant-Semitism. The phrase “den of thieves” comes from the story of Jesus throwing the moneychangers out of the temple, which is a story that was often used in anti-Semitic diatribes. It’s not me who has distorted history but Christian anti-Semites who distorted history by taking the Bible’s words and using them to justify their bigotry.
For yet another example of how the phrase has been used in anti-Semitic literature, here is a article that appeared in a Nazi journal about the “Jewish Question”:
“Of course, there is a danger that such a Jewish settlement area would become a world-famous El Dorado of criminality, given the deep moral decay of a large part of Jewry. There will have to be a force to provide just and honest supervision. This would also be possible, and details could be worked out. The danger may not hinder a broad solution of the Jewish Question by resettling Jewry to an appropriate settlement area outside of Europe. We propose this to the world: Give Ahasver a homeland, as far as possible from us, but sufficient and attractive. If he makes of it a garden, he can keep it, and will be protected. If, however, he makes of it a den of thieves, then one will keep him there.”
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/gercke.htm
The fact that Joe chose this tag for anti-immigration posts is telling because once again demonstrates how the rhetoric used by anti-immigration activists echoes the rhetoric used in the past against those considered to be foreign interlopers.
But even without the tag, as I pointed out, the piece is full of anti-Semitic rhetoric. Nan makes a point of the factory’s owners being Jews because it confirms stereotypes people already have of Jews being foreign interlopers who are greedy and deceitful.
As I have pointed out time and time again on this blog, anti-immigration activists cannot seem to help themselves when it comes to repeating bigoted rhetoric of the past. They rely of fear of the “foreigner” to makes their points, depicting foreigners as prone to criminality and disease, likening immigration to an “invasion.” That Nan used used the most historically virulent stereotypes against the most historically despised group of people on earth to make her case confirms how desperate and hateful the anti-immigration forces have become.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:38 am
zimzo,
“I’ve missed you terribly.”
Next time send a postcard when you disappear for a while. I was very worried.
“It’s pretty hilarious of you to accuse me of “finding bigotry under every bush” after all of your diatribes about how Barack Obama is a bigot.”
I never called Obama a bigot. I did state that his pastor IS a bigot. I also did mention that he appears ashamed of his mother, and that he threw his white grandmother under the bus. Does that make him a bigot? No, it does not! He is just a garden variety cynical, opportunist, race-card-playing politician.
“Apparently only you are the arbiter of bigotry.”
How so? The only people I brand as bigots are the ones the country as a whole can agree upon. You on the other hand …
“As far as never hearing the term “den of thieves” connected to anti-Semitism, I provided an example in my comment. If you want more, there is something called Google and I’m sure you have a library nearby, which you might want to use occasionally.”
As always zimzo, you miss the point, if you site something like that, in polite conversation, it usually is your burden to source it.
Thanks for the tip about the library! I looked it up by opening the back cover of a book I am currently reading and there it was, the address of the library from which I had borrowed said book. You are a pal.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:51 am
Dan,
Thanks for the tip, but I was hoping to get it from zimzo. My point was to get him into the habit of siting all his blarney. Then a deeper and less nonsensical conversation might ensue. We would be then arguing over interpretation of a document, instead of chasing the demons of his mind. zizmo’s chief demon being white, conservative, god-fearing heterosexual males. You know red blooded American, as opposed to tofu chomping, sissified metrosexuals.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:34 am
I did cite a source Jacob, which was quite easy to find as Dan demonstrated. I didn’t provide a link because it was so easy to find and links tend to send comments into oblivion in this blog. If you’re going to claim I’ve made something up, you should at least Google it first and if you can’t find it, I will be happy to help. You have this odd habit of assuming something you’re ignorant of doesn’t exist.
Some of my best friends (and family members) are white, conservative, god-fearing heterosexual males. I don’t know how you got the idea that I have a problem with them just because I disagree with you. But you do seem to have a problem with people who are not white, conservative, god-fearing heterosexual males. What exactly is your problem with people who eat tofu and don’t subscribe to your standards of masculinity? I say to each his own. And you might want to try eating tofu. It’s good for you.
Anyway, I am touched that you were worried about me. And thanks for the welcome back, Joe. Give Jon my regards.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:39 am
Come on zizmo, we all know you are simply cutting and pasting info you find on Wiki or some other web site. When someone challenges this, you go find more to cut and paste..
Using the den of thieves in his homilies, did John Chrysostom and others use the same playbook that you use; quote another respected source to add validity to your perspective ?
May 21st, 2008 at 10:18 am
By the way I am out of the “activist” game, and I do not know to what extent Nan was ever in it. So if you or any others in your pro-illegal camp need to use your “anti-immigrant” epithet, please just refer to the two of us as bloggers.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:37 am
zimzo says: “Then as if that weren’t enough you trot out the “some of my best friends are Jews” defense. Does your friend believe that Jews are greedy, too?”
Jacob says: ““Apparently only you are the arbiter of bigotry.”
How so? The only people I brand as bigots are the ones the country as a whole can agree upon. You on the other hand ”
zimzo says: “Some of my best friends (and family members) are white, conservative, god-fearing heterosexual males. I don’t know how you got the idea that I have a problem with them just because I disagree with you. But you do seem to have a problem with people who are not white, conservative, god-fearing heterosexual males. What exactly is your problem with people who eat tofu and don’t subscribe to your standards of masculinity? I say to each his own. And you might want to try eating tofu. It’s good for you”
Now I’m no rocket scientist but didn’t zimzo just trip over his whatever by contradicting his steadfast statement about “then you pull out the “my friends are…”?
zimzo, if you ask Joe nicely he will give you the name of a site where you can be in liberal heaven and never run out of bloggers to belittle. Just don’t ever let these bloggers know where you live. They tend to be kind of extreme!
May 21st, 2008 at 11:52 am
zimzo,
“Some of my best friends (and family members) are white, conservative, god-fearing heterosexual males”
If I’d have said something to that effect w.r.t. some hallowed oppressed minority you would have used it as evidence of my bigotry. See how it works? An accuation is made: ‘you are bigoted against …’, then the accused says ’some of my best friends are …’ and that is the clincher. Hilarious.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:53 am
zimzo,
“You have this odd habit of assuming something you’re ignorant of doesn’t exist.”
Hardly, it is just easier to pin you down by using the source YOU cite.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:54 am
zimzo,
“What exactly is your problem with people who eat tofu and don’t subscribe to your standards of masculinity?”
nothing, its clled baiting the zimzo.
“I say to each his own.”
me too
” And you might want to try eating tofu. It’s good for you.”
I do, I works well in oriental cuisine.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:57 am
Jacob,
Hello. Tofu is for Californians and sissies! Hello. Eat mushrooms like a man.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Joe,
Nan was an “activist” in the presidential campaign of Barry Goldwater.
Now, even her sneakers are worn out, and she is just a “blogger.”
May 21st, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Gee, you guys are easy. Of course, I was being ironic when I said “some of my best friends are…” Do I have to explain everything?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Zimzo :
To your original point- take your false outrage and Stick it in your ear !
It is conservatives at the ready to defend Jews and the Jewish state and for good cause. They are lined up against radical Arab States, Islamo nut jobs, The UN, American leftists, European Leftists and the rest of the Zimzo’s of the world.
Whether Iowa or Tel Aviv, when push comes to shove they know who has their back.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:45 pm
ACT,
mushrooms are good on everything from eggs, to burgers, to pizza. It is natures perfect fungus.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Hey, welcome back, Zim! We really did worry that something might have happened to you.
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:27 am
jacob,
“Thanks for the tip”
No probs, I had it open an open tab so I sent it. Assumed zitmo would not supply it.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:08 am
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