Rough Treatment of 2nd Amendment Supporters at RPV Convention
June 3rd, 2008 by joe
A very interesting tale from NVTH commenter “The Last Reagan” from the RPV Convention:
I am glad to hear that members of the Republican Party were exercising their Second Amendment Right at the State Convention.
According to Virginia law, unless signs are posted prohibiting firearms, one is free to carry open or concealed (with permit) wherever and whenever they so choose. It is incumbent upon the facility to openly post their prohibition.
However, I am aware that several law-abiding citizens were harassed by convention staff when they inquired about the rules and regulations of the facility, attempting to go above and beyond the requirements of the law. - Their mistake.
From what I understand, they were stopped more than once after their inquiry by both convention staff and later even law enforcement. Their whereabouts, location of firearms, and IDs were forcefully demanded. They were further targeted and harassed throughout the Convention by the Assistant General Manager of the Conference Center, Patrick Skaggs. They will be filing multiple complaints.
After a detailed inquiry by myself, according to Mr. Skaggs, the Assistant General Manager, “This is the way that the Republican Party wanted it. They wished for the incident to be handled as it was.”
I think that this is entirely contrary to our Republican values of supporting Second Amendment Rights and am furious to hear that the Republican Party had involvement in this Civil Rights violation incident.
I have already addressed the issue with Jeff Frederick, Morton Blackwell, the VCDL, the NRA, and every other Second Amendment supporter that I know, all of which I am hopeful will be investigating the matter. I hope that the Republican Party will file a complaint with the facility and remove whomever in the Party may have been involved.
Likewise, as a gun owner and an attendee of the convention, I am filing a complaint with the Republican Party, the Convention Center, my elected officials, and all others who appear relevant to the situation.
This is not how any citizen is to be treated. Period. It is a violation of everything that we believe in; free speech, the Right to keep and bear arms, and the Right to move about freely without being questioned.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, June 3rd, 2008 at 12:46 pm and is filed under 2nd Amendment, Campaign 2008, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
June 3rd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
As I told some at the convention, the first mistake was to seek permission to carry a firearm when permission is not required unless the building is posted. The building was not posted and therefore under the law permission or notification of intent is not required. Glen Caroline properly described the situation to me on the floor of the convention.
This situation is best handled by Phillip Van Cleve and the guys at VCDL. These folks know the law and handle these situations all of the time. VCDL knows more about Virginia Gun Rights than the vast majority of lawmakers and a good share of law enforcement.
June 3rd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
I was one of those accosted at the State Convention, though I got off much better than another attendee. Needless to say, I am outraged by the treatment that I received, which is detailed, in part, in the article above.
I have never had an experience like this before, never anything like what happened at this Convention and I am very upset that this occurred while I was in the refuge of my Party’s convention, or so I thought.
I am from Lovettsville, in Loudoun County, and had decided that it was time that I get more involved in State politics, I had recently been pretty involved helping some Republican candidates in the last election cycle.
I took the day off work, drove the two and a half hours to the convention on Friday morning, and made arrangements at a hotel. I planned on spending the entire convention helping the candidates that I intended to vote for.
I am a law-abiding citizen. I have a Virginia Concealed Carry Permit. I vote, I pay my taxes, I pay my bills on time, and I attend church regularly. - I do not appreciate being treated like a criminal. In fact, I will not tolerate it.
I, like many other permit holders, conceal regularly for self defense. Especially when traveling in unknown areas, I like to have my firearm available. I come from a law enforcement family and have learned to be cautious from childhood.
When I arrived at the convention center on Friday morning, I left my firearm locked in the car. As soon as I had the opportunity, I asked a convention center staff member if there was a prohibition on carrying firearms at the facility. He referred me to the Assistant General Manager.
What followed was one of the worst instances of abuse of power that I have experienced. I was harassed, embarrassed, and violated. Civil Rights were entirely ignored.
I will not detail all that happened right now because I am filing several official complaints. Though, I will say that I was improperly forced to identify myself, the location of my firearm, where I had been throughout the day, and harassed continually thereafter as the Convention unfolded.
None of the individuals involved in this incident, including the Secret Service agents who the Convention Center staff had called on me, identified themselves, with badge or by name. All of which acted very unprofessionally, certainly not in accordance with rules and regulations, and had no justification for their treatment of myself and others, except for, “that is a bad question to ask”.
I believe that I have the right to ask questions. Furthermore, I believe that I have the right to receive an answer, which myself and others did not receive in the first three, of many, encounters that took place. Yeah, that’s right, they followed us everywhere we went!
At the end of the convention, I was informed by the Assistant General Manager of the facility that, “this is the way that the Republican Party wanted it. They wished for the incident to be handled as it was.” I truly hope that he was lying about that statement, because other VCDL members like myself will not respond kindly to such an anti-First and Second Amendment offense by the Republican Party of Virginia.
I am filing many official complaints with all parties involved! Harassing citizens is never acceptable, under any circumstance. I was just trying to do the right thing and I paid the penalty for doing so.
June 3rd, 2008 at 5:54 pm
I don’t understand this. Your fire arm was locked in your car which is evidence that you did not plan to carry it inside. Then “As soon as I had the opportunity, I asked a convention center staff member if there was a prohibition on carrying fire arms at the facility.”
WHY did you ask that question when you didn’t intend to carry a fire arm? You conceal for self defence … when traveling in unknown areas. - My gosh, do you need to defend yourself among your fellow Republicans? The facility might have been an unknown area to you, but you weren’t out in the wilderness.
And then you say you pay taxes and go to church, pay your bills on time (good for you!) and all those things most people do, and you feel you deserve special treatment!
Anybody who feels he needs a gun to protect his fredom of speech, must be very unsure of himself IMO. Litigation = the American way. Sue, sue, sue!
June 3rd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
This is a serious issue and should be treated as thus. I am confident that the Founding Fathers were very sure of themselves when they ratified the Constitution with the First and Second Amendments.
Mr. Dunlap and others were mistreated. Civil Rights harassment should not be tolerated. Our party was founded upon the principles of freedom. The day that the Party stops honoring freedom is the day that the Party ends.
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:18 pm
I enjoyed the Convention up until the Marshall voting debacle. Seeing how angry many of the Marshall supporters were, it is probably a good idea to leave weapons outside of the Convention Hall in the future.
The lesson in this is, if you have a concealed carry permit and you want to carry your weapon, then it is your responsibility to know where it is or is not permitted. In the case of the GRCC, their website clearly lists the policy AGAINST all weapons with the exception of law enforcement. So read the website first. Don’t show up and surprise/scare the staff.
Walking up to some facility security guy on the one day in the decade that they are hosting the Vice President or during a political Convention and asking if it is OK to tote your gun with you, is just asking for trouble.
I know it should not happen and there are all sorts of Rights issues, but have some spatial awareness. After all, Dick Cheney proved that he and weapons are a volatile combination. I can see why the SS probably don’t want him within the same city block of a functioning firearm. (Isn’t his Secret Service code name, “Quickdraw”?).
GRCC has a stated policy against firearms and it is published on their website. As for security at the event, RPVA was required to provide security for its own event, however it appears that the RPVA arranged for the GRCC security personnel to provide coverage during the Convention.
Just a hint: If you want to challenge a facility’s firearm policy, don’t decide to do it the day of a Presidential/Vice Presidential visit. There is plenty of time to discuss such a policy and explore exceptions, but not on Presidential visit day or when there is a major political gathering with a target rich environment).
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Good points, JT.
June 4th, 2008 at 5:04 am
First, to Lovisa: Tim Dunlap wasn’t asking for “special treatment” as you put it. He simply expected his CIVIL RIGHTS to be respected. Nothing more, nothing less.
To JT Ballance: IF the convention center has a policy against carrying firearms, then the place SHOULD have the required signs posted. Otherwise, all they can do is ask you to please remove your firearm from inside the center.
June 4th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Lovisa, FWIW, I took Tim’s comment to mean he left it in the car until he got permission and then planned to get it out. There were other groups and lots of people besides the RPV delegates in the center. I felt safe, but maybe others preferred to pack.
I do agree the security staff’s reaction is not that surprising given that Cheney was going to be there, but in Tim’s defense, I doubt he knew Cheney was going to be there when he asked the question. I think that was a well kept secret most of the day, presumably either for Cheney’s protection or because of uncertainty re: his schedule and whether he would in fact make it.
June 4th, 2008 at 7:10 am
Unless the website for the Convention Center has already been updated since the event, as I suggested to the Assistant Manager, the policy was not listed in the general rules and regulations for attendees. No one, and many individuals tried, was able to find it until directed to it by the staff.
There were many individuals carrying firearms concealed at the event. - No incidents occurred. - The only incident was the unlawful treatment of those who attempted to go above and beyond their duty as law-abiding citizens.
For those who are unaware of Virginia Law, as the Convention Center was, keep in mind that carrying in the Virginia General Assembly is quite legal. - People do it all of the time.
June 4th, 2008 at 7:59 am
The facility is to the post the site. This means signs at ALL entrances to the facility telling those that enter Firearms are prohibited. Posting the rules on a website is not the answer. The law does not read that one MUST own a computer in order to surf websites in order to own and carry a firearm. If the facility ( private owner ) does not want to allow firearms, they must notify the public at all points of public entry / access to the facility. Those places in which you cannot carry are a firearm in the commonwealth are spelled out in the law.
The lesson here is don’t ask. If the facility is not posted carry your firearm as is your right.
June 4th, 2008 at 8:03 am
In light of this situation, asking is a great mistake, but it is certainly not ‘criminal’ to do so. In their mindset at the time, they did the right thing. They were just trying to make sure that everything was straight. - The one in the wrong is the facility, let’s not forget that.
I hope that it makes the Convention Center feel better that for all those who would have identified themselves - now they’ll never know!
June 5th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
I have seen by reading all these comments that not all who call themselves believers of America and her rights are truly American but very unAmerican. Mr Budzinski apparently doesn’t believe in trusting honest law abiding citizens to take care of themselves for their own protection. Why speculate on someone elses behavior? Gun control in all shapes forms and sizes is unconstitutional.Also Linda B. thinks there is an exception to a right. I don’t think so!Also J. Tyler Balance is asking for trouble by saying in the future to leave weapons in the car. I suppose he is a RINO. That’s okay. I can spot them a mile away.I suppose Lovisa is a RINO too.Too bad.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
What the hell are you talking about, Keith?
June 5th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Keith -
How did you ever conceive of the idea that I am an “R” in any way, shape or form? I’m a clear-thinking, intelligent, mature Unitarian liberal who just happened to drop into this blog - and enjoying some of the comments, others not so much. But interesting to find out what RINOs and real Rs think.
Carrying guns into your own convention seems like you’re scared of your own. “… law abiding citizens to take care of themselves for their protection.”
Seriously, what were you afraid of? Did you think there were moles lurking in the corners, bent on killing off a few Reps, mayby?
June 5th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
I think Keith is just not a very careful reader. But it is good to have you on as a fellow RINO, Lovisa.
June 5th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
BTW the point about being allowed to carry one’s gun wherever one happens to be has as much to do with responsible gun ownership as with sensing “danger” in any particular place.
As a rule, it is a BAD idea to leave one’s gun in the car. As a gun owner, one of your biggest responsibilities is to ensure a bad guy does not acquire your gun, so you basically want to know where all of your firearms are at any given time.
When you have to leave it in the car you are surrendering control, and hypothetically the gun could be stolen.
It is quite reasonable to want to carry one’s handgun on a trip to Richmond. For many people, it is as logical an accoutrement as a map or cell phone. It is a big problem to have to leave it in the car. This is in large measure the argument for being allowed to carry just about anywhere, that you can keep the gun on you at all times.
June 5th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Think G. Stone’s 220 has hit a bulls eye in #10. The onus is upon the owner of the private property to tell you firearms are prohibited.
Is the Richmond Convention Center a public or private facility ? If private, then 18.2-308. O is applicable. Public facility, another story altogether.
Tim, join VCDL if you are not already a member, best $35 you will ever spend. Only by enough of us sticking together will this crap cease.
June 5th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Missed that you were already a VCDL member Tim, sorry bout that !
June 5th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
“I’m a clear-thinking, intelligent, mature Unitarian liberal….”
A true oxyMORON.
June 6th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Jack,
That was pretty low capitalizing “MORON”. NoVisa is a very fragile soul and the last time she pouted for about 2 weeks. I personally like having her inane bantor around. It allows me to have insight into the idiot mind. Sorry, NoVisa. I meant to say “insight to another viewpoint”.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Dear ACTivist,
Pleased to be of SOME use to you! Are you sure you spelled “inane” correctly? One little “s” would make big difference.
(sp. mistake BANTER)
June 6th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Are you missing Zimzo, ACTivist?
June 6th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Now now, I am about to send all of you to your rooms without supper.
As for ACTivist mistaking Lovisa for Zimzo we have to be charitable. ACTivist is able to type, which is incredible considering that most Chimpanzees can’t write
June 9th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Jacob,
“As for ACTivist mistaking Lovisa for Zimzo we have to be charitable. ACTivist is able to type, which is incredible considering that most Chimpanzees can’t write.”
I resemble that remark. What gave it away? Was it the fur or dragging the knuckles?
And Jack, I miss zimzo as much as I miss chiggers!