Without Even a Wimper
June 11th, 2008 by jack
Western civilization, born in ancient Greece and Rome, nurtured in Northern Europe, and matured in the United States and Canada, is dying. More specifically, we are killing ourselves. According to the CDC, the (age adjusted) white fertility rate in 2005 was only 1,840 live births per 1000 women aged 15-44, well below the replacement birth rate (See Table 15). To compare apples to apples, that CDC report of non-age-adjusted white fertility rate was 58.4 live births in 2004. Meanwhile the abortion rate was 10 per 1,000 women in that age group. That would work out to another 469 live births, putting the total fertility rate up over 2,300 per 1,000 white women of child-bearing age, well above the replacement rate.
Blacks fare a little better. Although their abortion rate (28 vs. 10) was higher, the Black Total Fertility Rate (TFR) was 2,020. The Hispanic abortion rate is 26.0 per 1,000 women of child-bearing age, but their TFR is 2,824.5. (The rate for Mexicans in America was 3,021.0!)
The same trend is occurring in Europe, Russia, and Japan.
We are told that the wages of Sin is Death (Romans 6:23). We are dying.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, June 11th, 2008 at 9:29 pm and is filed under Abortion, Culture, immigration. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
June 12th, 2008 at 4:36 am
Some people don’t want to mess with children. others don’t want to subject children to todays society (can’t blame them there). I would like to see where those poorer nations who have a high, out-of-control birth rate, are on the lifespan scale.
So unless the Mexicans are going to become doctors and stay in the U.S. I won’t have any doctors around to care for me (baby boomers) in my later years. This could get dicey but I can live with it!
June 12th, 2008 at 6:17 am
ACTivist -
“…I won’t have any doctors around to care for me in my later years. This could get dicey but I can live with it!
Great morning chuckle. Thanks!
June 12th, 2008 at 6:55 am
I’m here for you, girl. We aim to please!
June 12th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Britain already has the best doctors Pakistan can provide!
June 12th, 2008 at 9:03 am
So let me get this straight, Jack. You are saying that “Western Civilization” consists only of white people? So African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are not part of “Western Civilization”? Are Barack Obama, Condoleeza Rice and Bill Richardson not members of “Western Civilization” according to you?
The population of Ancient Greece was about 13 million at its height; the population of the Roman Empire reached about 60 million. I think “Western Civilization” has a long way to go before it reaches those numbers so I wouldn’t worry yourself too much about it.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:54 am
I think zimzo is having a compass hissy. I wonder what he/she/it considers “western civilization” to be? And there he/she/it goes again with the hyphenated-ancestory/PC crap again. I wish he/she/it would grow up. HE-SHE-IT. Sounds like Shiite! Are you Muslim zimzo?
Oh, Bore-rock is a Heinz 57 kind of guy so he is only a little part western. The dung part.
June 12th, 2008 at 10:11 am
“So African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are not part of ‘Western Civilization’?”
Not generally, no. They have their own culture, and generally stick to it.
“Are Barack Obama, Condoleeza Rice and Bill Richardson not members of ‘Western Civilization’ according to you?”
There are always exceptions. Rice and Richardson seem to have accepted Western Culture. Obama not so much.
“The population of Ancient Greece was about 13 million at its height; the population of the Roman Empire reached about 60 million.”
It is not a matter of raw numbers, but of the dominant culture in a region. The highest estimates of the American Indian population in 1492 was about 12 million. In 2005, there were over 30 million. Their culture is not doing very well.
June 12th, 2008 at 10:15 am
I would also point out that in the Roman Empire at its peak, the Romans were a minority. However, the other races accepted Roman Culture, and it thrived. The majority of Blacks and Hispanics are NOT accepting Western Culture.
June 12th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Jack, in what ways has Obama “not accepted Western culture” while Richardson and Rice have? In what ways is African-American and Mexican-American “culture” not “Western culture”? What do you think “Western culture” means?
June 12th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Black Liberation Theology
June 12th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Sorry, had to work for a minute
, so I did not finish.
I do not believe that Hispanics, in general, believe that the rights of the State come from the People, but that the rights of the People come from the State. The rule of law is a joke in Latin America. (With all those natural resources, why are they so poor? Corruption.)
June 12th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Jack,
I am not sure I agree with you on this one. BLT (not the sandwich) is steeped is left wing socialistic nonsense and wedded very loosely to the Gospel message that there is a G-d. That is misses the true message of the gospel does not disqualify it as part of western culture. Albeit, BLT is hostile to the culture that spawned it.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
BLT rejects the culture that spawned it.
June 12th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Jack,
Many a child rejects their parents. It does not mean they are no longer biologically linked. The innate hostility of BLT to the wider culture from which it came from does not cut the biological link. The thinking is still western. That it is whiny, angry, aggrieved, looking for guv’mint to right some wrong and accusatory puts into firmly into the left hemisphere of our culture. Just like zimso.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Many children are disowned.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
And others are bastards.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Some animals kill their offspring at birth.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
disowned, or illegitimate they are still the actual offspring. National Socialism, Communism and Fascism are all products of the West. The West acting as a proper father has drowned these three. But still, drowned or not, offspring they are.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I do not believe your analogy is a good one. The parent is not the child. Although the Roman Republic spwaned the Roman Empire, the Roman culture changed dramatically over that period, and finally collapsed. Our “Western Culture” is a descendent of the Roman Culture, not the Roman Culture itself.
The Black “subculture” may be a bastard child of Western Culture, but it is not Western Culture.
June 12th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I never implied the parent was the child in any way. Fascism, Communism, National Socialism are the children or Western Culture. The west has rejected these monstrosities by an large. In WWII Fascism and National Socialism where drowned. In 1989 Communism was sentenced to death with fall the Berlin wall. Yeltsin hung it a few years later.
Our culture contains many ‘Roman’ components. Are we Roman? No, but Roman cuture was early Western Culture, and the Greeks in a true sense where the founding Western Culture with some other minor players. Our culture is Western, and a lineal descendant of Roman and Greek cultures. Yes, we also have Germanic and Judeo themes as well, but these enriched the founding culture without overwhelming it. Today the American black sub-culture is in the main western as well, for it is in the main American.
Obama has far more cultural affinity with YOU than he has with his own African Muslim grandmother. He may consider you to be ‘a typical white person’ and love his grandma, but he and you share more in common culturally than he and his African relatives.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
But that does not change the fact that Obama’s BLT culture rejects our culture and seeks its destruction, as does his socialist culture. Socialism and BLT may be child cultures, but Erik and Lyle were children of Jose and Kitty Menendez.
June 13th, 2008 at 2:58 am
Jack you still have not explained why you think a declining birth rate among white people means that “Western Civilization…is dying.” Your original post implies that David Duke is a member of Western Civilization and Condoleeza Rice is not. Then in the comments you brought up the idea of “Western Culture” but never defined it and said that some non-white people (how many?) had “accepted” “Western Culture,” whatever that is. But if that is true, then what does “Western Civilization,” which you have also not defined, have to do with race? Or are you admitting that there is no correlation?
June 13th, 2008 at 5:46 am
Because other races, in general, do not value the heritage of Western Civilization.
This is a generalization, of course. Specific individuals of any race may adopt any culture.
Western Culture _is_ fluid, and so cannot be defined so much by what it is, but by what it is not. The Hispanic Culture is certainly different from that of non-Hispanic whites, or we would not have “Hispanic Culture” classes in schools.
Words are imperfect, as am I. That I am unable to articluate to your satisfaction what constitutes “Western Culture” makes it no less real.
The definition of “culture” includes “the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another” and “the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.”
I think we can agree that by both of these definitions, there is a Hispanic Culture in America, and that that culture is different from that derived from northern Europe.
June 13th, 2008 at 6:13 am
Jack writes: “Because other races, in general, do not value the heritage of Western Civilization.”
On what do you base the absurd notion that other races do not “value” Western Culture? Do you honestly believe that “in general” non-white Americans do not “value” Western culture?
Hispanic culture is derived from Spanish culture, which is certainly Western, and most Latinos are Roman Catholic, which is certainly western. What makes North American culture, which is also derived from Europe and also contains influences of non-Western culture (for example, jazz) more western than Latin-American culture?
Jack writes: “I think we can agree that by both of these definitions, there is a Hispanic Culture in America, and that that culture is different from that derived from northern Europe.”
So you’re saying that only Northern European culture is considered Western? So Italian and Spanish and Greek culture is not “western.” Oops, in your original post you said western civilization was born in Greece and Rome. So what are you saying? I don’t think you have any idea.
June 13th, 2008 at 6:38 am
Fine, we’ll call it “Northern European Culture,” rather than “Western Culture.” It is a name only. Happy?
Do you not agree that, whatever we decide to call it, it differs from Hispanic Culture?
June 13th, 2008 at 7:11 am
You guys are outdoing yourselves on this one. I’ll be sure to save these comments in case your voices ever manage to become relevant.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:24 am
If you’re asking me if German culture differs from French culture or New York culture differs from Virginia culture, well, duh.
But that has nothing to do with your original post. Your original post said that Western Civilization is dying and your evidence for this contention was that the birth rate of white people is declining.
So what would make me “happy” would be if you admitted that “western civilization” does not consist solely of white people, that there is no correlation between the health of western civilization and the birth rate of one particular race, that David Duke is not more “western” than Condolezza Rice and that your original post was even more dunderheaded than your usual tripe.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:47 am
We have already changed that from “western” to “northern european.” (Although I think we can safely include Italy.)
There IS a correlation between the health of a civilization/culture and its population. (How’s that Celtic culture doing?) However, culture is not tied to race. Yo-Yo Ma, born in France to Chinese parents, is a cultural icon. Condoleezza (two E’s) Rice and David Duke are individuals, too, and can choose to adopt any culture they wish. Exceptions are just that, exceptions. Exceptions to a group do not define the group.
Hispanics can be of any race, so there cannot be a racial component to the issue. I have worked with White Hispanics, and I have worked with Black Hispanics. “Hispanic” is an ethnicity, which is defined as “a group sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.” Their being a distinct ethnicity is defined by their having a distinct culture.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Jack,
What kind of work do you do that brings you together with black and white (brown also, I suppose) Hispanics?
An inquiring mind wants to know.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:51 am
I am an engineer, I coach baseball, and I am a scout leader. I have also been a dishwasher and a mover.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Jack: Condoleeza has one Z BTW.
Jack, it was a good try, and I even agree with you up to a certain point. But (as usual) you’re confused (and so, wrong). The issue isn’t the definition of “Western”, but focusing on the word “culture”.
Northern European PEOPLE are dying out. Those that can trace a majority of ancestry back to Northern Europe (within a few generations) appears to be trending downward. Japanese people are also heading in the same direction. The primary reason seems to be that affluence (for people in rich countries) is inversely proportional to the number of children, so people are having fewer children, but protecting each child far more than in the past (bike helmets, mandated vaccinations, etc.).
However, affluence in poorer countries seems to be proportional to the number of children (working the field, etc.) so they have more of them.
As far as culture, though, you’re off base. The rest of the world would shake their head and say “don’t you see that U.S. culture has invaded the world over the last 60 years?” Do you know of any commercial airports that don’t use English? Certainly cultural styles from across the world are melding everywhere, and so from that standpoint ALL cultures are dying and forming a new, more homogeneous culture across many countries.
If you don’t want Western Europeans to die out, have more kids. If you don’t want U.S. culture to die out, export more Coke, work hard, commit to freedom (yay SCOTUS!), keep writing books and blogs.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:34 am
“Condoleeza has one Z BTW.”
Well then, Sanity, the White House is spelling it wrong.
Anyway, your point is a good one, that “Northern European PEOPLE are dying out.” However, attributing it to wealth is, perhaps, valid on a larger scale, but not on a smaller. If you read the article on Japan that I cited, it blames the poor economy for the lower birth rate. (I will undertake to compare the U.S. birth rates to economic growth — something for a later post.) At the same time, you are correct that poorer nations have higher birth rates.
We have seen a tremendous change in our economy over the last generation. (This is also mentioned in the Japan article.) Far more women are working, and thereby chosing, through birth control and abortion, not to have as many children. These options are not so readily available and affordable in poorer nations.
I have been to Tokyo. (東京へ行きました。) Yes, they do speak English. Our economic dominance over the last century has helped to spread the language, and other parts of our culture, around the globe. The Roman Empire spread that culture throughout the known world 2000 years ago. I suppose that is some comfort.
“If you don’t want Western Europeans to die out, have more kids.”
I have five. We are getting a little old to have more. Even if I had many children (a Palestinian friend down the street has 17), I am but one man. Many people must change their thinking about having chilren before the pattern will be reversed.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:56 am
[…] an earlier post, I lament the impending demise of “Western Civilization.” Gadfly “Sanity” […]
June 13th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Hmmm. You could be right with Condoleezza.
Also, I should have clarified that when I said “affluence”, I meant something more like the “pursuit of affluence”. In other words, having children in the richer countries is not perceived as adding to someone’s standard of living like it used to (”I have 10 cows and six sons. I am rich!”), so people are saving money by having fewer children.
When it costs $250K to raise a child to 18, many folks would rather save it for retirement for a better life or an earlier start. I agree that it’s not good long term.
To really fix the problem, we need to: (a) disabuse people of the notion that it costs $250K MORE to raise a child. It doesn’t. And (b) change our “culture” so that rather than using money as our “scorecard”, we get back to using relationships and family as the measure of affluence.
I don’t, frankly, know how to do that, but would like to figure it out.