Comments on: The same standard http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/ updated, and a little more mellow Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:37:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Brian Withnell http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-10154 Brian Withnell Mon, 08 Sep 2008 02:44:38 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-10154 If the judge acts as prosecutor, that is even worse. The deck is stacked ... if the LEO says one thing, you say another, is it really beyond reasonable doubt? Could the officer be mistaken or the citizen be mistaken -- or both? Giving more weight to one person's testimony than to another is a stacked deck as well. There have been cases where a LEO was found to have lied in court about traffic tickets, and yet the court did not go back and order every ticket that officer's testimony caused a conviction within to be reversed. If the judge acts as prosecutor, that is even worse. The deck is stacked … if the LEO says one thing, you say another, is it really beyond reasonable doubt? Could the officer be mistaken or the citizen be mistaken — or both? Giving more weight to one person’s testimony than to another is a stacked deck as well.
There have been cases where a LEO was found to have lied in court about traffic tickets, and yet the court did not go back and order every ticket that officer’s testimony caused a conviction within to be reversed.

]]> By: Cathymac http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9274 Cathymac Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:09:08 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9274 Brian, I had a long winded explanation that got eaten, but a ticketing or arresting officer is presenting evidence, not making legal arguements, that is the job of a Prosecutor. If you want to fight a ticket and bring a lawyer, most of the time a Prosecutor will step in to make the legal arguement, sometimes it is just the Judge. It all depends on the seriousness of the crime. It is a fine line, but a serious one, because the implication is that if a LEO is a prosecutor the deck is stacked. You have greivance outlets and the ability to fight a ticket or charge, all the LEO can (legally) do is present his side of the case citing the violation. There are instances where a very busy traffic court on a routine traffic violation will not appoint a Prosecutor even if a lawyer is representing a citizen, therefore it is the testimony of the LEO that stands and the judge makes the legal detemination. Whew! Long winded but hopefully readable. Brian, I had a long winded explanation that got eaten, but a ticketing or arresting officer is presenting evidence, not making legal arguements, that is the job of a Prosecutor. If you want to fight a ticket and bring a lawyer, most of the time a Prosecutor will step in to make the legal arguement, sometimes it is just the Judge. It all depends on the seriousness of the crime.

It is a fine line, but a serious one, because the implication is that if a LEO is a prosecutor the deck is stacked. You have greivance outlets and the ability to fight a ticket or charge, all the LEO can (legally) do is present his side of the case citing the violation.

There are instances where a very busy traffic court on a routine traffic violation will not appoint a Prosecutor even if a lawyer is representing a citizen, therefore it is the testimony of the LEO that stands and the judge makes the legal detemination.

Whew! Long winded but hopefully readable.

]]> By: Brian Withnell http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9269 Brian Withnell Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:37:39 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9269 CathyMac In most jurisdictions, the officer that gives you the ticket is the one to bring the case against you at traffic court. I'm not sure about Loudoun -- I don't think I've ever had a ticket here. I can tell you it is true in at least two jurisdictions in Maryland (my first ticket was in Anne Arundel County *many* years ago) where I got a ticket and I was surprised to see the "prosecutor" was the officer that had given me the ticket. It was a lesson in the deck is stacked against you in court. I remember the second ... the same thing (a parking ticket that I still feel was unfair, the sign was ambiguous, and I actually thought I was parked legally). Someone else would have to speak for Loudoun County courts -- I have not gotten a ticket here. I'm sure if the charge is a greater offense then you will see a separate prosecutor, but if it is just speeding? Do you see someone other than the officer? CathyMac

In most jurisdictions, the officer that gives you the ticket is the one to bring the case against you at traffic court. I’m not sure about Loudoun — I don’t think I’ve ever had a ticket here. I can tell you it is true in at least two jurisdictions in Maryland (my first ticket was in Anne Arundel County *many* years ago) where I got a ticket and I was surprised to see the “prosecutor” was the officer that had given me the ticket. It was a lesson in the deck is stacked against you in court. I remember the second … the same thing (a parking ticket that I still feel was unfair, the sign was ambiguous, and I actually thought I was parked legally).

Someone else would have to speak for Loudoun County courts — I have not gotten a ticket here. I’m sure if the charge is a greater offense then you will see a separate prosecutor, but if it is just speeding? Do you see someone other than the officer?

]]> By: Marjorie http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9181 Marjorie Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:43:02 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9181 Laura, Have you considered moving to San Francisco? It is a sanctuary city. I am sure they would love to have you join the population out there. They support the alien no matter what. Rapist, murderers, child molesters and just your run of the mill illegal. This way you have more support in your belief that illegal’s should be here no matter how they arrive, followed by the high taxes YOU will pay to support your fellow alien. Laura,
Have you considered moving to San Francisco? It is a sanctuary city. I am sure they would love to have you join the population out there. They support the alien no matter what. Rapist, murderers, child molesters and just your run of the mill illegal. This way you have more support in your belief that illegal’s should be here no matter how they arrive, followed by the high taxes YOU will pay to support your fellow alien.

]]> By: ACTivist http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9135 ACTivist Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:24:06 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9135 3 and 1/2 decades for me and it is almost time for me to jump ship. I'm going to the land where the sheriff gets child molesters on the internet to come to Va. for arrest. Then we get to have a big barbeque after they're convicted and shot them. No double standard cause we do the same for murderers, rapists, old people muggers and social security check stealers. We may not be "civilized" but we have laws AND enforce them! Yippy-ky-yah pard. 3 and 1/2 decades for me and it is almost time for me to jump ship. I’m going to the land where the sheriff gets child molesters on the internet to come to Va. for arrest. Then we get to have a big barbeque after they’re convicted and shot them. No double standard cause we do the same for murderers, rapists, old people muggers and social security check stealers. We may not be “civilized” but we have laws AND enforce them! Yippy-ky-yah pard.

]]> By: dan http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9065 dan Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:06:01 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9065 "And based on the logic that concludes that thread, how many people are actually qualified to comment on Sterling Park?" My guess is those posters there who we happen to know live there, and have lived there for a decade of more. “And based on the logic that concludes that thread, how many people are actually qualified to comment on Sterling Park?”

My guess is those posters there who we happen to know live there, and have lived there for a decade of more.

]]> By: Cathymac http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9060 Cathymac Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:57:34 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9060 LV, You seem to enjoy mentioning certain poster's "reputations" quite a bit in your retorts, so your rant about this being a post about double standards and not you is indeed ironic. You hold a reputation of double standards on one issue, and it will continue to be your achilles heel in future discussions if appropriate, which it is here. LV, You seem to enjoy mentioning certain poster’s “reputations” quite a bit in your retorts, so your rant about this being a post about double standards and not you is indeed ironic. You hold a reputation of double standards on one issue, and it will continue to be your achilles heel in future discussions if appropriate, which it is here.

]]> By: Cathymac http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9059 Cathymac Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:49:30 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9059 Brian, LEO's aren't prosecutors, they are enforcers of the law. If someone gets a ticket for speeding, they have recourse in the courtroom to present their case. Good point on the Simpson ticket fixing, I recall that accusation and when you don't answer a charge, I guess it just goes away? LEO discretion is always misunderstood by the general public, and to ACT's point, most of the time the "air of superiority" is IMHO an "air of authority." I may be opening a can of worms, but the municipality or state give LEO's the authority to perform functions that, for the most part, are not going to win them points with the general public. Approaching a vehicle on a traffic stop takes some major cajones, officer safety is tantamount, and if someone gets their nose out of joint because there was some gruff talk, well, grow up. Who likes to get a ticket, raise your hand. Anyone? ACT, I'm sure you are talking about scenarios other than traffic stops, and that can be discussed, but that was just an example. I won't ever claim that LEO's are perfect in their jobs, no one is, but it is almost a sport to bash them. There are cases of misconduct in all areas of Law Enforcement, they are human with flaws. I will dismount off my soap box now, with a triple flip. Brian, LEO’s aren’t prosecutors, they are enforcers of the law. If someone gets a ticket for speeding, they have recourse in the courtroom to present their case. Good point on the Simpson ticket fixing, I recall that accusation and when you don’t answer a charge, I guess it just goes away?

LEO discretion is always misunderstood by the general public, and to ACT’s point, most of the time the “air of superiority” is IMHO an “air of authority.” I may be opening a can of worms, but the municipality or state give LEO’s the authority to perform functions that, for the most part, are not going to win them points with the general public. Approaching a vehicle on a traffic stop takes some major cajones, officer safety is tantamount, and if someone gets their nose out of joint because there was some gruff talk, well, grow up. Who likes to get a ticket, raise your hand. Anyone?

ACT, I’m sure you are talking about scenarios other than traffic stops, and that can be discussed, but that was just an example.

I won’t ever claim that LEO’s are perfect in their jobs, no one is, but it is almost a sport to bash them. There are cases of misconduct in all areas of Law Enforcement, they are human with flaws.

I will dismount off my soap box now, with a triple flip.

]]> By: Brian Withnell http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9050 Brian Withnell Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:43:42 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9050 Hmmm... Back to double standards. If there were evidence that tickets get fixed by deputies at the direction of Mr. Simpson, and he does not admit to such action, and people hold Ahlemann to a standard that is not held by others, then that would be a double standard. Admitting that one does not keep perfectly what one is supposed to do when one is not perfect is less of a problem than not being perfect and lying about it. I see little difference if we allow discretion on the part of police. If discretion is not equal (and formal) is it fair? Part of the problem might be that a police officer knows he is going to act as prosecutor for traffic violations. If he knows there is no way he will be able to get a conviction for moderate speeding by a couple on the way to the hospital with the woman in labor, then he might as well save himself and the court the time and expense of righting the ticket. Is it fair? Probably not. Mercy is never fair though. Mercy is by definition not getting what you deserve. If it were fair, it would no longer be mercy, but justice. Hmmm…

Back to double standards. If there were evidence that tickets get fixed by deputies at the direction of Mr. Simpson, and he does not admit to such action, and people hold Ahlemann to a standard that is not held by others, then that would be a double standard. Admitting that one does not keep perfectly what one is supposed to do when one is not perfect is less of a problem than not being perfect and lying about it.

I see little difference if we allow discretion on the part of police. If discretion is not equal (and formal) is it fair? Part of the problem might be that a police officer knows he is going to act as prosecutor for traffic violations. If he knows there is no way he will be able to get a conviction for moderate speeding by a couple on the way to the hospital with the woman in labor, then he might as well save himself and the court the time and expense of righting the ticket. Is it fair? Probably not.

Mercy is never fair though. Mercy is by definition not getting what you deserve. If it were fair, it would no longer be mercy, but justice.

]]> By: Laura V http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9047 Laura V Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:23:12 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9047 Technical correction: a legal permanent resident is eligible for food stamps if they have met the following criteria: A qualified alien who does not belong to one of the groups above can get food stamps if he/she is otherwise eligible, and is: " A qualified alien in one of the following groups who has been in qualified status for 5 years: -- An LPR who has earned, or can be credited with no less than 40 quarters of work. -- Paroled for at least one year under section 212(d)(5) of INA . -- Granted conditional entry under 203(a)(7) of INA in effect prior to 4/1/80. -- Battered spouse, battered child or parent or child of a battered person with a petition pending under 204(a)(1)(A) or (B) or 244(a)(3) of INA." Regardless, a legal permanent resident is just that and is therefore eligible for benefits. No laws have been broken, no ethical lapses, not relevant on this thread. Technical correction: a legal permanent resident is eligible for food stamps if they have met the following criteria: A qualified alien who does not belong to one of the groups above can get food stamps if he/she is otherwise eligible, and is:

” A qualified alien in one of the following groups who has been in qualified status for 5 years:

–
An LPR who has earned, or can be credited with no less than 40 quarters of work.

–
Paroled for at least one year under section 212(d)(5) of INA .

–
Granted conditional entry under 203(a)(7) of INA in effect prior to 4/1/80.

–
Battered spouse, battered child or parent or child of a battered person with a petition pending under 204(a)(1)(A) or (B) or 244(a)(3) of INA.”

Regardless, a legal permanent resident is just that and is therefore eligible for benefits. No laws have been broken, no ethical lapses, not relevant on this thread.

]]> By: Laura V http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9046 Laura V Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:09:38 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9046 Majorie, let me just say in parting, the woman who recieved those benifits must have been a US citizen, immigrant or not. LEGAL immigrants are ineligible from all federal means-tested public benefits for five years after entering the country and barred from SSI and food stamps until they have achieved CITIZENSHIP. According to what you state she is recieving we must conclude that she is "our own" now as determined by US law. If that dipleases you perhaps you should consider supporting FAIR, an organization that opposes almost all new immigration, including legal. I would love to stick around and serve as the punching bag but this thread has gone pretty far off track already. Majorie, let me just say in parting, the woman who recieved those benifits must have been a US citizen, immigrant or not. LEGAL immigrants are ineligible from all federal means-tested public benefits for five years after entering the country and barred from SSI and food stamps until they have achieved CITIZENSHIP. According to what you state she is recieving we must conclude that she is “our own” now as determined by US law. If that dipleases you perhaps you should consider supporting FAIR, an organization that opposes almost all new immigration, including legal. I would love to stick around and serve as the punching bag but this thread has gone pretty far off track already.

]]> By: Marjorie http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9044 Marjorie Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:46:22 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9044 Laura, Still gunning for the alien. When are you going to wake up! Aliens are helping with the downfall of our nation, the economy, the education system, strain on law enforcement and medical care. What is going to open your eyes to this? Perhaps when you loose your job and your home? Cannot go on welfare or Medicaid because you do not qualify? But the alien is able to. How will you feel then? You see, I know about this first hand. I was turned down for unemployment: however the little old lady from Asia was not. While I was waiting to speak to someone I was able to hear all her benefits. Hers, as well as all six of her family. Each one received a load of money, food stamps, housing and medical. Please do not tag me about where they were from: an alien is an alien despite where they come from. All for stepping on American soil! So much for taking care of our own first: What kind of standard is this? Btw: is this double standard topic only applied to law enforcement or just a discussion on standards? Laura,

Still gunning for the alien. When are you going to wake up!

Aliens are helping with the downfall of our nation, the economy, the education system, strain on law enforcement and medical care.

What is going to open your eyes to this? Perhaps when you loose your job and your home? Cannot go on welfare or Medicaid because you do not qualify? But the alien is able to. How will you feel then?

You see, I know about this first hand. I was turned down for unemployment: however the little old lady from Asia was not. While I was waiting to speak to someone I was able to hear all her benefits. Hers, as well as all six of her family. Each one received a load of money, food stamps, housing and medical. Please do not tag me about where they were from: an alien is an alien despite where they come from.

All for stepping on American soil!

So much for taking care of our own first: What kind of standard is this?

Btw: is this double standard topic only applied to law enforcement or just a discussion on standards?

]]> By: ACTivist http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9040 ACTivist Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:33:41 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9040 Laurie, Still carrying the banner for the aliens I see. Be better than the other putses here and don't fall prey to their ploys. :wink: Laurie,
Still carrying the banner for the aliens I see. Be better than the other putses here and don’t fall prey to their ploys. :wink:

]]> By: ACTivist http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9039 ACTivist Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:17:40 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9039 Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan! Enough said. Consider yourself flamed! Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan! Enough said. Consider yourself flamed!

]]> By: ACTivist http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-9038 ACTivist Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:15:53 +0000 http://novatownhall.com/2008/08/16/the-same-standard/#comment-9038 Cathymac, I have come across officers that feel what they do is a great service of the people when in actuality there is a distinct air of superiority. There are officers that belittle the people they are confronting and call this action "just doing their job". Minor infractions are made to look like catastrophic occurances. Although this is the smaller percentage, it grows when left unchecked-and becomes the "norm". Cathymac,
I have come across officers that feel what they do is a great service of the people when in actuality there is a distinct air of superiority. There are officers that belittle the people they are confronting and call this action “just doing their job”. Minor infractions are made to look like catastrophic occurances. Although this is the smaller percentage, it grows when left unchecked-and becomes the “norm”.

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