47 Responses to “Neighborhood Listens Project Just Launched”

1. Cathymac
   May 14th, 2009 @ 7:24 am

   I’d be interested in some periodic updates on this effort. Anything that opens up lines of communication is good and I think your collective assessment that many people simply don’t know any better is correct.

   One question though, if in your door to door efforts you find out information that reveals anything illegal – such as gang activity – how will you handle that information?

2. joe budzinski
   May 14th, 2009 @ 11:34 am

   That’s a good question, Cmac. I don’t think any of us is of the opinion that LESS enforcement in any arena is a good idea. Neighborhood Listens is a supplement to, not a substitute for, Neighborhood Watch. But as we have seen over the past two years, you can’t count on the Sheriff’s Office to always be there before you are a victim of a crime (and you can’t count on Zoning to be there, ever). So just as we should always be doing: If someone sees evidence of a crime or anything suspicious, they should contact the authorities.

   The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people in our neighborhoods are not engaged in criminal activity and there is more that can be done to get more of them on the same page. The door to door portion will be aimed at distributing information to people who by and large, at the end of the day want the same things for their families. By doing this we hope to head off problems and violations, reduce the number of complaints, and thereby free up enforcement officials to direct their efforts at the true problem cases.

3. Cathymac
   May 14th, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

   In effect, you are taking over one role that is usually performed by an HOA, that being disseminating information on community standards. Obviously you won’t be enforcing those standards but performing a service.

   I know SP has several HOA’s (maybe I am wrong), so will you be working with those existing HOA’s? I think your door to door efforts may elicit questions on HOA’s in general.

   This is a good effort Joe, it is always nice to hear when people from all sides get together to solve problems that they mutually deem important.

4. Eric the 1/2 troll
   May 14th, 2009 @ 2:29 pm

   I agree with Cmac, Joe. This is an excellent idea and I wish you success. To me only good can come from your efforts. Even us westerners could benfit from a similar kind of neighborhood/community communication program. Maybe we could get the bicyclists and pickup drivers together…

5. G. Stone
   May 14th, 2009 @ 4:30 pm

   Joe :
   I too applaud your efforts. However I do have a serious concern. In the past these types of efforts have become a platform for certain groups to raise their voices and request levels for expanded Government services. The pitch from their side is – We could do much better if only we had enhanced education and social services.
   As a former member of the Loudoun County Criminal Justice Board, we were asked to review and recommend for use certain social programs aimed at the Spanish speaking ” immigrant ” population in Loudoun County. We were told those Hispanics in the system on charges of drunken and disorderly, DUI or domestic abuse would curtail those activities if only we were to fund a program at tax payers expense that communicated to them that those behaviors were not acceptable, and in most cases against the law. This was presented to us as communication. It was nothing but an expansion of the size, scope and cost of local government aimed at assisting a very specific community. Not all, but many in that target audience were illegal and in no way deserving of such services. The government was not prepared to check status making this a defacto program for illegals. Further, this was at a time prior to the explosion of illegals in Loudoun County. Apparently the communication did not translate.

   This from the Bio of Richard Cabellos-Reyes.

   “Currently his career has taken him back to where he grew up in Fairfax County, where he works for the county to bridge the gaps between the immigrant community and access to government services.”

   I don’t know Mr. Reyes and I am sure he a wonderful fellow. But lets remember what the term ” immigrant community ” means to those working on their behalf. That term in Government speak almost never separates Illegals from the real immigrant community, those here legally. Again, this is why I refuse to use the term Illegal Immigrant, instead using Illegal Migrant or Illegal Alien.

   Despite political setbacks and voter apathy due to the shadow of our current economic mess, I believe real progress can be made at the local level. After listening to Chairman Cory Stewart the other night, I am convinced now more than ever that local community and county solutions is the place to start.

6. joe budzinski
   May 14th, 2009 @ 5:23 pm

   G – I am fully aware of the fact my colleagues in the effort are on the other side of the illegal immigration debate from me, I think that point is acknowledged clearly. But we have certain beliefs in common about quality of life in our neighborhoods and think we can accomplish something short of agreeing about illegal immigration.

   Both sides are giving a little simply in SPEAKING with the other side. But for them to allow themselves to be affiliated publicly with me even in a small way is a risk, and of course I knew I would catch some flack also.

   But criticism is a result of simply not thinking it through. When we drive on the highway every day we put our lives in the hands of thousands of other people, many of whom are people we would want nothing to do with in any other forum. But we are willing to sit three feet away at 70 miles an hour from guys in huge trucks and everyone else – and every day we thereby acknowledge common ground of no small significance. We bet our lives on that trust in the basic competence and judgment of everyone else on the road. So here we are three guys who discovered they basically agree on some fairly important day to day matters and some possible solutions to serious problems. It should not be any more difficult to put aside our differences in this scenario than it is to pull out onto 28 and assume the driver of the 18-wheeler is not going to veer into the right lane. It just makes a lot of sense to me.

7. Wolverine
   May 14th, 2009 @ 8:59 pm

   HOA’s — the serious ones, at least — have long been trying to do what you describe. The one big advantage the HOA’s have over other neighborhoods is that state law permits them to levy fines for continued non-compliance. Even then, there are complications in trying to ensure community-wide compliance.

   Having faced a lot of these problems over the past few years in the context of working with an HOA, I can give you some examples of problems encountered. I will be quite candid here in stating that much of this is geared toward Hispanic immigrants, although some similar problems have been encountered with other ethnicities (an even in some cases with native-born White residents, especially those who dislike any authority).

   (1) Written language can be a problem. Even when you issue advisories or notices in both English and Spanish, you will find that many recent immigrants do not read their own native language very well. Unless they take the time to find a compatriot who can read well, they seem to have a tendency to ignore these written materials. We have found that about the only sure way to get them to understand the issues at hand is to somehow oblige them into a face-to-face meeting with the HOA authorities where Spanish verbal translation can be used.

   (2) The move-in and move-out pace for immigrants in this community is very rapid. You may well discover that, where once you thought the street or neighborhood to be fully informed and ready to meet common standards, you now find that the faces have changed so rapidly that you feel as if you have to start the process all over again. This is especially so because many, many of these people are renters who very often sub-let a home by the floor or even the room. There is, therefore, a seemingly constant flow to a point where even the HOA is not sure who is living in the community. Advisory communications often do not get passed along through a natural process and only come to the attention of all the occupants of a dwelling when the owner or principal renter is slapped with repeated HOA fines. Since the sub-let people are usually not registered anywhere, it becomes harder and harder for the HOA to determine exactly where a particular violator actually lives.

   (3) Many of these immigrants do not use the postal system as the rest of us might. You may find a home rented by immigrants and sub-let to other immigrants whre none of them actually get mail at that address, not even advertising flyers or free newspapers. This is because it is the absentee landlord who empties the mail box. Therefore, if you attempt to communicate your advisories by mail to the residents of a partiular dwelling, there will be a percentage of the actual residents who will never see them.

   (4) We have found that one of the major problems is cultural differences. Many of the new immigrants simply do not understand the rationale behind rules and laws pertaining to public health and other established community standards in this country. Try to explain the rules against storage of unprotected trash based on the possible attraction of rodents and other critters and you may be facing their belief that you are harassing them and inconveniencing them because they are immigrants. Try to explain the rule against parking in marked fire lanes or someone else’s reserved space and you get “Un momento, por favor” (until the on-call tow truck shows up). Try to tell them they cannot park their vehicles in the common lawn areas, and they do not understand that it is eventually everyone who pays for repair to the lawns through condo fees and assessments. (I know of one guy who tried to argue adamantly that it was his absolute legal right to park his vehicle anywhere he wanted! I believe the HOA manager may have torn this guy a new one!)

   (5) No matter how hard you try, there will always be some who continue to avoid compliance out of spite or stubbornness. I have personally caught guys carrying their unprotected trash bags a block of two down the street to dump them in front of someone else’s home. I also caught one who came from a neighboring town to do the same thing in order to avoid paying for trash service or going to the landfill. (Both had the misfortunate not to see Wolverine watching their late-night tricks.) Those who refuse to comply with the rules and county law for whatever personal reasons seem to be brought to book only through repeated fines until it begans to put a serious dent in the wallet. Again, only an HOA has this tool in its arsenal. In cases like these, neighborhoods will still be at the mercy of county government willingness to respond.

   Having thrown many of the potential difficulties out there, I still say go for it. It will be interesting to see if this can be made to work. If successful, it could develop into a valuable weapon against the “Broken Window Theory.”

8. joe
   May 15th, 2009 @ 1:02 am

   Wolv and Cmac, good comments. I can’t say much from experience about the HOAs. They are not a major factor in this part of Sterling, but I agree that would be a logical direction for alliances, wherever there is an HOA.

9. joe
   May 15th, 2009 @ 1:39 am

   And Wolv, my position on the true problem cases is exactly the same as yours. No quarter. I agree there are some hopeless situations where breaking the rules is flagrant – we have had some on our street.

   But in the larger picture are plenty which are not hopeless at all. My overall impression of the people of other ethnicities in this area – here around N. Lincoln – is most are not looking for any trouble. Take a drive around Holly, Beach, Kennedy, etc, and you will see problems but also a majority of residences which are not problems or at least do not seem to fit the pattern of illegal-immigrant-scofflaws. I think that represents an untapped market to get buy in to solve problems.

10. Wolverine
    May 15th, 2009 @ 2:24 am

    Joe — I agree that many are not looking for trouble. In fact, given their immigration status, you would assume that they would try to avoid drawing attention at all costs.

    What I find very difficult is that they too often simply do not understand from a cultural standpoint what it is that draws the attention to them. I cannot count the number of times the HOA has tried to get through to new immigrants the public health dangers associated with rodent infestations caused by inappropriate handling of trash, as well as the fact that such trash attracts woodland critters in a county with the highest level of confirmed rabies cases in the Commonwealth. You can preach and preach until you are blue in the face; and some keep right on doing the deed, until finally they are brought up short by the repeated imposition of fines, failure to pay meaning loss of certain privileges.

    Secondly, economic factors seem to trump our rules every time. Especially given the economic downturn, many of these people cannot survive financially without breaking the HOA rules or county zoning ordinances by taking in illegal boarders and creating conditions of overcrowding. (Also by starting unauthorized businesses in areas zone residential.) In my experience, this has become an out-of-control problem even for the HOA’s, since these renters-by-the-room are almost impossible to identify and move in and out faster than you can shake the proverbial stick. In fact, one of the few ways in which our own HOA gets a warning of new “tenants” somewhere in the community is when Neighborhood Watch patrols encounter what we have taken to calling the “Midnight Moving Service”— usually a couple of pickup trucks and occasionally an old rental truck. This has become, in my opinion, an almost overwhelming problem. (It is especially of concern when LCSO arrest reports indicate a detainee “of no fixed address” — meaning we automatically start reviewing our own patrol records against the mugshot and the vehicle descriptions.)

    In sum, what we are fighting is not only a communications and cultural understanding problem but also the economics of the whole thing. Even if you make some headway with the first problem, the fight against the last one is much, much harder — unless our own government starts doing what it is supposed to do: enforce our laws.

11. joe budzinski
    May 15th, 2009 @ 2:52 am

    Wolv, you and I, and I believe Ben and Ricardo, are very much on the same page with regard to the quality of life issue. When rats show up in your back yard, it is a problem. We’ve had them here. It blows.

    But this just brings me back to the communication piece of the puzzle. Granted, in some cases there are structural – economic – circumstances which make communication a challenge. That does not mean, however, that a communication effort is a dead end.

    My contention is the majority of “foreigners” in our area are not a problem, and are on the same page with us.

    Just because there is the continuing phenomenon of boarding houses and midnight move-ins and company towns planted in our suburbs, does not mean we can’t find some common ground with those immigrants who are not party to all that. I think, at worst, 15 percent of residences are a problem. That gives us a whole lot of people we could be connecting with.

    And when you think about economics think about this: If it were possible to create a groundswell of support for basic standards with regard to zoning and related rules, it would cut off one of the legs of the economic model sustaining the problems you are describing.

12. Wolverine
    May 15th, 2009 @ 4:21 am

    Joe, I’m not arguing with your contention that there are many, many immigrants who are not part of the problem and who might be convinced to help in your endeavor. In fact, I can state that some of the most productive assistance provided to our Neighborhood Watch has come from (legal) immigrants of many different ethnicities who have been as unhappy as we have been to see certain people threaten the quality of life, safety, and property values in our community as a whole.

    One problem though. What I have sometimes seen here is virtually a repeat of what I encountered during my career tracking down the bad guys. The good guys, no matter how much they are with you in spirit, harbor a deep fear of revenge from the real bad guys even if their support is only informative rather than direct action. That is a hard thing to overcome, especially in an area known to have a serious gang presence. I had a recent case in which an eye-witness refused to reveal his identity to the LCSO and would only provide his reporting to me on the proviso that I not reveal his name to the LCSO. This being nothing new to me and since I had an established rapport with the LCSO, the thing worked on that occasion and turned the direction of the investigation around.

    While I am speaking in these particular instances about a fight against crime, I think this may also apply to attempts to “clean up” a neighborhood from a zoning ordinance and quality of life standpoint. Therefore, I have to caution you that you may face this kind of fear in your endeavors and may have to work extra hard to overcome it. Very often, you will have to be the “public face” because your immigrant friends and supporters absolutely fear to have their own identities revealed. If you can find some who are willing to overcome this fear and work openly with you, hang onto them for dear life. They can prove to be good as gold.

13. Cathymac
    May 15th, 2009 @ 8:01 am

    I was going to expound on the topic of cultural differences, but wolv’s #4 above is a great summary:

    “(4) We have found that one of the major problems is cultural differences. Many of the new immigrants simply do not understand the rationale behind rules and laws pertaining to public health and other established community standards in this country. Try to explain the rules against storage of unprotected trash based on the possible attraction of rodents and other critters and you may be facing their belief that you are harassing them and inconveniencing them because they are immigrants.”

    I think Wolv can speak to the the public health issues that face some of the countries these immigrants (legal or illegal) come from. It is simply foreign to them to comply with trash rules, car parking regulations, etc. We have a rat issue in our neighborhood, one street over. Although it seems to be under control and it is known where is started, try as they might the neighbors involved can not convince the offending neighbor to stop burying some of their trash in their back yard. It is a “cultural thing” according to these neighbors. “Welcome Rats!” is what I call it.

14. G. Stone
    May 15th, 2009 @ 8:49 am

    Joe:
    I actually agree with the project. If it improves conditions on the ground that is what matters. As long as that desire is not traded for expanded government programs, consider me a supporter.

15. joe budzinski
    May 15th, 2009 @ 9:50 am

    Thanks for all the constructive comments, folks, I will keep you all apprised how it is going as we move forward.

16. G. Stone
    May 15th, 2009 @ 10:41 am

    “Welcome Rats!”

    Can you say Pellet Gun ?

17. joe budzinski
    May 15th, 2009 @ 12:18 pm

    One particular member of the neighborhood has that action well covered. But I really do need to get me one of them. Maybe I could rationalize the purchase as that one final piece of our domestic security perimeter…

18. G. Stone
    May 15th, 2009 @ 12:51 pm

    Joe:
    Take a bad situation and make the best of it or at least a sporting event. You and your neighbor who will remain unnamed, could turn this into quite an on going contest. Rat extermination was never so much fun !
    Trophies at the end of the year for the winner ?

19. Cathymac
    May 15th, 2009 @ 1:41 pm

    Rats burrow and have poor eyesight, so patience may be required to shoot one even though they probably can’t see you. They must travel around to some extent because my neighbor found one on her deck and her elderly father beat it with a broom – apparently it was gruesome!

    My other neighbor had rodent traps in her back yard and the little suckers avoided them with ease.

20. Wolverine
    May 15th, 2009 @ 4:17 pm

    Excuse me, fellow bloggers. Correct me if I have been misinformed; but isn’t discharging a pellet or BB gun in a heavily populated area against the law in Loudoun County?

21. joe budzinski
    May 15th, 2009 @ 4:40 pm

    I prefer to think it is not. That is my position and I’m staying with it.

22. ACTivist
    May 15th, 2009 @ 5:41 pm

    “Trophies at the end of the year for the winner ?”

    The neighbor would win.

    “Rats burrow and have poor eyesight,”

    So does Joe’s neighbor.

    “so patience may be required to shoot one…”

    I think I was told that the “quick shot” makes it more sporting for the neighbor.

    “but isn’t discharging a pellet or BB gun in a heavily populated area against the law in Loudoun County?”

    Hey, Wolve? Mind your own darn business, Yank! If Joe wants to do rat extermination because the county can’t, I look on it no different than assault. The rat has kooties and needs dealing with. You spoil sport.

23. Joe Budzinski
    May 16th, 2009 @ 12:36 am

    Well I have no doubt that discharging a pellet gun is officially frowned upon, and that a certain neighbor would beat me in the rat-shooting contest. But you know what folks? I am gettin’ me a pellet gun.

24. dans
    May 16th, 2009 @ 1:03 am

    c. Unlawful Acts. No person shall discharge any BB gun or hunt or attempt to hunt with any BB gun in any area of the County zoned PDH-12, or in any residential area of the County developed at a density of one unit or more per half acre within one and one-half miles of any area zoned PDH-12, provided that this section shall not be deemed to prohibit the following acts: ….

    PDH-12 is Planned Development, Housing at 12 residences per acre

    Is this clear now ?

25. Wolverine
    May 16th, 2009 @ 2:08 am

    Heck, ACT, around here I just beat on those rats with the big stick I carry. Matter of fact, one night I was going after one I thought was hiding in the bushes by my door and whacked down where I figured he was. Turned out to be a skunk in there. I don’t know who was runnin’ faster, me or the skunk — in opposite directions, of course.

26. jack
    May 16th, 2009 @ 7:37 am

    Learn to shoot a bow — use blunts.

27. Cathymac
    May 16th, 2009 @ 8:18 am

    I’m having a vision of Joe dressed in a boonie hat and sweaty t-shirt, mumbling something like “greasy grimy rat guts”. If there is a series of explosions that we can hear across Route 7, I’ll know Joe has lost it and is somewhere smoking some Kentucky bluegrass…..

28. ACTivist
    May 16th, 2009 @ 10:13 am

    A noble cause with some merits but I see many issues that may not be able to overcome. Wolve cited a few.

    I approached my neighbor on the day he moved in to set up friendliness and co-operation. He was stand-offish at best towards my hand of welcome. After 5 years, I don’t know much about him and he won’t reveal much. Seems he might have had bad experiences elsewhere. Although I have tried to look out for his best interests and explain what “rules” exist for the area, he completely disregards my communication. Now that times are hard and he has moved back in as resident of his house (used it as a boarding house for years), he can’t seem to make ends meet without boarders (another new one just moved in about 3 weeks ago). My latest peace offering was some extra strawberry plants that my wife helped with planting explaination. He shows no courtesy, no “neighborly acknowledgements” and no willingness to do other than what he feels like. They are quiet and but an island unto themselves.

    This is what you face and need to overcome. They have their own reasons and fears as to why they won’t comply or get involved with others. How can you promise them that if they become more “outgoing”, friendly and complient, that at a later date the zoning, immigration and tax groups won’t start hounding them? Saying that and reading your post, I wonder if this endeavor (and possibly its example) won’t take hold and spread like wildfire across the nation. When it has succeeded, what then? Now you have complient ‘llegals” (speaking only of this group for this concern) and since they follow the rules, why not just give them the next amnesty WHICH WILL be proposed? “Come to our country illegally and abide by our rules and we will let you stay.” Sounds like an open border invitation to me.

    Don’t get me wrong. I hope you can succeed in your endeavor and I know “baby steps” are necessary. What will this effort cause (side-effect) and will the outcome be worse then if it was just left alone? If it helps get rid of gangs and tax evaders, I’m all for it. If it helps to solidify and anchor illegals then it has become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. You must have a progress sheet and timetable in order to know when to proceed forward and when to pull the plug.

29. Ben Kelahan
    May 16th, 2009 @ 3:27 pm

    As I told Joe the other day, the hard work of a new effort in my experience begins the day after you’ve gone public with it, because it’s impossible to think of all the answers as well as create something that addresses all issues and everyone’s concerns. This is very much a beginning with a lot of hard work and activity ahead of it.

    The comments on this so far are encouraging and the questions quite warranted and needing discussion and debate. The four corners of this “agreement” are not inked yet and it needs your assistance. This won’t be a panacea, but I think our hope is that it gets us closer to something resembling a better community.

    When Ricardo, Joe and I got together we focused on very small (yeah right) issues – safe neighborhoods, understandable and communicated community expectations, etc. and that we needed more communication in neighborhoods to achieve that. And, that folks like us, at times on different sides of the immigration debate and other issues, could agree on something like that and respect one another opinion because we’ve had the opportunity to listen to them. I also feel we learned something about one another we didn’t know and perhaps did not expect. Most importantly, we found that our assumptions of people we read about in the paper, on blogs, etc and hear about from others, can be off.

    In terms of what next on what happens to immigrants and thier status after everyone feels we’re communicating and sharing neighborhood expectations, the most honest answer is I don’t know. What I do think is, after an effort like this has time to work and neighbors on both sides of the issue feel comfortable discussing “minor” issues in thier community, perhaps they can tackle that one together instead of from opposite sides of the street.

    This is what I believe we’re after here. Never one to loose an opportunity to ask for help, we’re very interested in expanding the conversation beyond the three of us. We’re actively recruiting more parties to the table and we welcome you. In addition, we are putting together an outreach plan to various communities that will include a team of volunteers to canvass neighborhoods seeking to listen to feedback and how members of the community currently communicate and thier satisfaction with that level of communication. There’s only one way to get real feedback like that – pull it out of conversations on doorsteps and in front yards.

    We are also soliciting talented people that are bilingual in numerous languages that are used in Loudoun to serve as community liaisons. If you know of individual that might be interested let us know.

    Look forward to many of you getting involved in the effort.

30. BarbaraN
    May 16th, 2009 @ 3:51 pm

    Joe, have been very out of the loop working at work and navigating my bailout refinancing (a topic for another post – whether or not you agree with it, you’d have to be a dope not jump on the band wagon), but agree with and applaud your efforts entirely. I was probably the first to sign on to the LNA. As I told you I would, I approached the residents of the stye next to my house to inquire about cutting the grass. My child was with me, and I used EVERY ounce of civility I could muster. After a week had passed and 4 days of rain were predicted, the grass crested 15 inches (except where the white van is parked on top of it). Given my rat infestation, and the fact that my exterminator of seven months has advised me that it will NEVER abate until the local harborage is removed, I filed a tall grass complaint. I then emailed the Board of Supervisors, providing photographs of the hay next door, requesting that they contact the property owner. At least one of them did, and later that day someone was there to cut the grass. That was about three weeks ago. By this week, the hay was back. While I was at work, someone came by and cut it without a bag on the mower. Nothing I like better than having to get out my rake and a leaf blower to clean the trash and hay off my property after a hard day’s work when I should be making dinner for the family.

    No matter how much effort is made, there seems to be a disproportionate number of property owners here in the Park that have no integrity and are too irresponsible to adhere to any sort of community agreement.

31. Wolverine
    May 16th, 2009 @ 5:01 pm

    Ben and Joe, I would like to throw out an additional opinion here, using BarbaraN’s stated problems as a catalyst. In some ways you may be facing an all-or-nothing situation with regard to the quality of a neighborhood. In effect, it may take only one grossly non-compliant house on a street or in a neighborhood to turn away a prospective buyer. I can honestly state (and it makes me sad to do so) that if BarbaraN put her house on the market and I came by with a real estate agent to look at it, the condition of the place next to hers would turn me away immediately. In fact, it would probably turn me away from the street and perhaps even the neighborhood.

    Our HOA tries to fight against this by placing heavy pressure on ALL owners to comply with the law and the HOA rules, realizing that, if one residence turns into a shambles, all the neighboring residences suffer not only from problems already stated on this thread but from declining values and a loss of normal sale potential. Well, perhaps one might eventually find a buyer; but there is a likelihood that your buyer, placing little or no importance on the condition of the place down the street, may be of a mentality which will soon give you two problem houses on that street.

    If you care to take a first-hand look at what I am saying, go to Alder Avenue S. in the Park at night. Once a quiet and pleasant street of small bungalows, Alder now has a house which looks like a commercial parking lot in the street,in the large driveway, and sometimes on the lawn — cars, pickup trucks, vans, and even box trucks all crammed together. The house next door and those across the street are going in the same negative direction, virtually like a contagious disease. No buyer with hopes of a nice, quiet neighborhood and high standards of maintenance and quality of life is ever going to consider buying a home on that street. The homes nearby have obviously been sold by “fleeing” citizens to people whose personal standards are as low as those in the residence cited.

    Ergo, I think that, while it helps to find some who are willing to change their ways and follow the rules with a goal of making the neighborhood as a whole safer and better, it is imperative that simultaneous pressure through whatever means available be put on the true recalcitrants. To my mind, it comes down in the end to the rotten apple in the barrel being the possible dashing of all your hopes.

    Having said all of the above, I see a glimmer of hope in the possibility that a new combination might have some chance of being effective against the true recalcitrants: legal pressure plus shame. A two-punch approach using the law and isolating the recalcitrants by making them see every day the results of efforts by those, especially those of a similar ethnicity, who demonstrate a true caring and lawful attitude toward their surroundings just might have some effect. In my book it is definitely worth a try as a first step out of the current mess.

32. Cathymac
    May 17th, 2009 @ 9:45 am

    Joe and Ben, As many have pointed out, there seems to be a huge curve, those that are compliant after a problem has been raised or some type of citation by the county – let’s call them the Compliants. Then there are those that will never be compliant – let’s call them the Never Compliants. How many are in between? Obviously those are the houses/neighbors you will be addressing and I think you’ll know sooner, rather than later, if they are reachable. You’re going to get most of your input from the compliants and you will have to use that input on the in betweeners.

    The door to door is going to be very time consuming. Have you thought about an on-line survey, do a flyer drop on doorsteps and ask people to log onto your site and answer questions with a comment section? It could be a start, and if people fill out contact information you can follow up with a door to door and ask them for recommendations on who else to talk to on their street. If nothing else you might be able to pinpoint those Never compliant areas on a more widescale basis and work around them. Like anything, it will be like pulling teeth to get people to participate, that’s just the way it is.

33. G. Stone
    May 17th, 2009 @ 12:21 pm

    First things first.

    Communication is one thing, some education is a must and those organizations outside of government must step up and provide the required education and information or this goes nowhere.

    These groups can certainly bring in experts or those in the know on specific issues, but it is incumbent on them to make this happen. Remember we are not talking negotiations here. This is about informing those ignorant of the rules , the rules. Laws, ordinances and community standards will not change in order to accommodate or oblige any group. The effect on our communities is varied and wide felt. I applaud providing information that effects positive change.

    Let me give you an example. As many of you know I love to fish and have been fishing Goose Creek for about 20 years. I have a pretty good historical perspective on this little river. Twenty even ten years ago the fishing was great, this river was full of fish. Then on or about the time Goose Creek ( as well as the Shendoah and Potomac Rivers ) became popular with those recently arriving from South America the fishing began to suffer. Goose Creek as one Game Warden put it, became a fish market. I have witnessed as late as last Sunday Spanish Speaking migrants fishing the banks of Goose and keeping ALL fish ignoring VDGIF creel limits. In the summer months, I have seen and reported to VDGIF these folks running gill nets across the entire length of the river. This is illegal by state law. However, it is done all the time by members of this community. The Game Wardens call this practice to vacuum the river.
    This is what they did where they came from so Therefore they will do it here, at least until the resource no longer exists and the move on. Again, it is not our responsibility to surrender the resource or changes the laws. The responsibility lies with those wishing to make the case that the transgressors can improve and cooperate through education and information. communication comes in many forms. I myself did my best to inform ( as I always do ) those in possession of illegal fish that they were breaking the law and the fish must be returned. I am also doing them a favor in that they should not be consuming these fish due to the posted PCB health advisory. Another reason why everyone should be able to speak and read English.

34. joe budzinski
    May 18th, 2009 @ 12:28 pm

    Cmac, I may have painted the wrong picture – door to door was just a metaphor, actually. I only see that coming into play in cases where someone is inclined to do so. Doing as much as possible online is exactly how I see us going forward. The main face to face stuff would be at specifically targeted events or called meetings, and when neighborhood points of contact are established to greet new arrivals and deal with communication challenges.

    G, There is no part of this program entailing lapse in law enforcement, period. One of the main points is that increased community awareness in general would increase community interest in how the county is managing its various charges (including law enforcement and zoning enforcement). We reduce the number of zoning and police complaints by communicating community standards more effectively, thereby freeing our county personnel to concentrate more on the more serious abrogations taking place.

35. Cathymac
    May 18th, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

    Good deal, Joe.

    hey, didn’t anyone get my Caddy Shack refence above???

36. joe budzinski
    May 18th, 2009 @ 1:04 pm

    Heh, sorry yes I got it but was dragged away from the computer for an extended time by the spousal unit and forgot to respond.

    Though I still need the pellet gun, I already have the pith helmet and hunting khakis, machete, frog gig, mag light, 100% DEET repellent, boots, Glock sidearm and MREs. So I’ve got that going for me, which is nice.

37. Cathymac
    May 18th, 2009 @ 1:17 pm

    If you meet the Dalai Lama, you’ll be set.

38. dans
    May 18th, 2009 @ 2:43 pm

    G-

    I agree with everything you say. I have experienced similar during the fall, when on numerous occasions I have returned to my vehicle after the close of legal hunting hours only to encounter some Hispanics suiting up for a night in the woods.

    I myself am not convinced it is ignorance of the rules alone, and from my experiences serving my HOA I have seen more callous disregard than ignorance by these noncompliant homeowners.

    “those organizations outside of government must step up and provide the required education and information or this goes nowhere.”

    I have little faith in those that have made a livelihood of teaching illegal aliens how to game our system. As a Missouri native would say “show me”.

39. jacob
    May 18th, 2009 @ 2:55 pm

    G, D,
    Why should those who come here illegally and stay illegal suddenly start obeying the fishing and hunting regs? The illegals engage in and benefit from fraud — how else do they opbtain the needed docuemtation to work here? By the time one has broken 20 rules in a week, without penalty, how can on then have anything but contempt for the hunting and fishing laws? This whole conversation is surreal.

40. Cathymac
    May 18th, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

    Jacob, Just had a conversation on how a fine, ticket or order to appear in court is nothing to a habitual rule breaker that is illegal. They simply don’t care in most cases.

    What Joe is addressing is those that want to comply with community standards that don’t know what the community standards are. It may be a small group, but just preventing a couple houses from going from bad to worse can keep a neighborhood from going from bad to worse. It is worth a try.

41. joe budzinski
    May 18th, 2009 @ 4:31 pm

    Dan, I agree totally on the existence of problem houses – we have a case or two of “callous disregard” on our street. And because of the fact that there are only two or three of us who ever lodge complaints, the county is free to ignore us and allows the problems to continue. Our HOA is toothless. If more people were paying attention and aware of remedies (instead of just saying to themselves “it sure looks funny to have cars parked on the lawn, but what are you gonna do?”) then maybe we’d get a better response from officials. In my view this would be a plausible side effect of this program. And for the problems resulting from ignorance rather than willful ignorance, it’s worth it to try having someone say, “Hey there, please don’t park on your lawn, ok?”

    In any case, nothing that anyone I know of has tried here has accomplished a single step toward the goal of ameliorating the problem cases. Everyone who wants to keep banging their heads against the wall, please be my guest. I want to try to get something tangible accomplished.

42. ACTivist
    May 18th, 2009 @ 4:35 pm

    The bumper sticker necessary for your endeavors was seen today on a MD tagged car. It read-Being a good neighbor is what makes a good neighborhood-. If only it could be displayed in 10 other languages, the point might have a chance!

43. squiddy
    May 18th, 2009 @ 5:04 pm

    “It may be a small group, but just preventing a couple houses from going from bad to worse can keep a neighborhood from going from bad to worse. It is worth a try.”

    Exactly. My neighborhood is very diverse, and we mostly get along, despite the many cultural differences. The few problems we do have could probably be resolved with but a little education and common sense. (And that works both ways – a little respect for people from other countries doesn’t cost us anything.) I’d like to think that legal immigrants are taught social customs and mores before they’re allowed to come here, but I suspect that’s not the case. And in any event, does little for the illegal.

    I *do* have a *host* of pet peeves regarding the different values some of our immigrant friends may have, including:

    – dropping litter anywhere, everywhere when you’re done with it is not appreciated – I have to pick up trash every day around my house, and it’s usually not hard to guess who’s doing it (Coconut soda cans, discarded phone cards, etc).
    – leering at women and young girls, while muttering to themselves under their breath, and blowing your horn, slowing down, and shouting at girls on the street is *not* considered a compliment in our society
    – Americans value their pets – casually running a dog or cat down is considered highly offensive to most of us. So is throwing rocks and sticks at them.
    - The reason trash containers are used is to prevent attracting wild animals/vermin. Plastic trash bags with food and other similar waste must be placed in secured bins.
    - and yes, I’ve witnessed acts of poaching and other illegal taking of fish and game.

    Anyway, yeah, if someone wants to reach out and explain our social rules and mores, so much the better. What’s to lose?

    I would hope that this goes beyond simply nominating one group as the only one that matters – I tend to be suspicious of anyone that treats “Hispanic immigrants” as a single entity – like a Guatamalan is the same as a Mexico City Mexican.

    There are lots of Spanish cultures, quite different from one another. And lumping them together while ignoring the existence of Koreans, Chinese, English, Germans, Russians, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Saudi Arabians, Romanians, Pakistanis, Indians, Afghanis, Congolese, Somali, etc, all of whom number among my neighbors, smacks of political bean-counting.

    None of which is meant to discourage Joe in any way; we’ll never get anywhere without some effort like this.

44. dans
    May 18th, 2009 @ 5:46 pm

    Joe, why is your HOA toothless ? Is it a lack of volunteers ?

45. joe budzinski
    May 18th, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

    It’s sort a strange situation. The neighborhood was unfortunately allowed to develop with two separate HOAs, corresponding to two general stages of construction. Some years back, apparently in the early 1990s, one of the HOAs decided to shut down, and thereby rendering a huge segment of the neighborhood uncovered by any HOA.

    Our house is directly abutting the non-HOA portion, so literally beginning next door and all the way for the next three blocks up the street, and the next block over across the street, are uncovered by the HOA. On my street, I think there are 8 houses covered, probably 40 not covered.

    Of the remaining “problem houses” on our street, all are in the non-HOA portion.

    When we did have problems in our section, however, the HOA played no significant role in solving them – it was repeated calls to the police and then finally foreclosure that got changes made.

    I think the fact its jurisdiction is limited has sort of scaled back the HOA’s scope and influence. I suppose if more aggressive people were involved it would help the portion of the neighborhood that’s covered, but it would not do anything for my street so for the moment I am not willing to put in the time.

46. Anti-BVBL » Neighborhood Action Forum Saturday at GMU-PW
    May 28th, 2009 @ 10:03 pm

    [...] http://novatownhall.com/2009/05/14/neighborhood-listens-project-just-launched/ [...]

47. joe budzinski
    May 29th, 2009 @ 5:07 am

    thanks for the link, Cindy. let’s stay in touch.

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