Obama has long stated that the health-care reform he wants is not a rationing plan, or that he wants to encourage people to die, then he ought to stop publishing this garbage. If the health-care he is in charge of already is pushing don’t use care but die, then how does he expect anyone to believe him when he wants to control the rest of health-care? If veterans are being encouraged to die rather than use health-care (and they are owed health-care more than anyone else) how does he expect any trust from us? What kind of idiot is he anyway?
Oh, and if Lincoln really gave a damn about the slaves, the Emancipation Proclamation would have applied everywhere. Instead:
Jack: “So Lincoln was a liar?”
No, he was a politician. He actually wanted to accomplish his goals instead of sitting around and ranting like you do. I have already explained hy the Emancipation proclamation did not apply everywhere. It’s amazing how naive you are.
You said that states have a right to secede, which means you would have supported letting slavery flourish unmolested. Lincoln did not argue that states have no right to secede. In his first Inaugural Address, he argued that states do not have the right to secede unilaterally, likening the Constitution to a contract where one party does not have the right to abrogate the contract without the permission of the other party. In Texas v White the Supreme Court ruled that states do not have the right to secede.
Zimzo,
Are you for socialism or do you stand behind our
constitution.
Which one? Cannot be both or parts there of each.
Jack: “So Lincoln was a liar?”
Zimzo: “No, he was a politician.”
That’s what I said.
Interesting opinion you have zimzo, but the historical record does not support it.
““One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it.”
Exactly, this is why we have the northern states bear full responsibility for the three fifths clause in Article 1. The north wanted slaves to not be counted in the determination of Congressional representation. The New England states would have gotten the short straw.
“You said that states have a right to secede, which means you would have supported letting slavery flourish unmolested.”
Non sequitur alert!
Z> Lincoln did not argue that states have no
Z> right to secede. In his first Inaugural
Z> Address, he argued that states do not have
Z> the right to secede unilaterally…”
You’re contradicting yourself again.
Z> In Texas v White the Supreme Court ruled
Z> that states do not have the right to secede.
Based on what constitutional principle? None.
Try reading this: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams032702.asp
BTW, the Supreme Court also came up with the Dred Scott decision. Do you think that was correct, too?
The Dred Scott decision was overturned. There is no chance that Texas v White will be overturned and it remains the law of the land.
That article just proves that conservative thought is based on a pre-Civil War mentality. I prefer living in the 21st century.
So you admit the Supreme Court can make incorrect decisions? Again I say, there is no basis in the Constitution for the Texas v White decision.
Z> That article just proves that conservative
Z> thought is based on a pre-Civil War mentality.
As is the Constitution.
Z> I prefer living in the 21st century.
In which the Constitution can be ignored for political expediency.
btw zimzo,
“The point still stands, however, that Jack believes that slavery should have been allowed to flourish”
Nonsense. The Confederates themselves were against this, prohibiting it in their constitution.
????
Article IV, Sec.2:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
Article I, Section 9:
Ibid.
jack,
Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.
(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
You are correct that slavery was sustained. I realize that this is semantics, but the fact remains that slavery can’t flourish lacking importation. That, coupled with the fact the something like 10% of southern landowners were slave holders.
btw, if you’re interested :
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snhome.html
O.K., Zim, you keep up with the absolutism and the current Holder asininity right in the middle of a deadly war. There will come a day when you will no longer have a vigilant and aggressive “army” out there, just a bunch of timid bureaucrats all wrapped up in red tape and unwilling to take chances. I go along with Squiddy. If I, perchance, were asked to rejoin that “army” under the current Oval Office leadership, my answer would be a definite “no.” Good luck to you because you are going to need it.
Wolverine if members of our armed forces find it so difficult to stay within the law and are so worried about an investigation into whether they did, then that just makes it all the more imperative that the Justice department pursue this investigation. I hope that is not the case but your protests just make me wonder what has been going on for the last eight years.
Law ? What law is there on a battlefront ? Only one, the law of kill or be killed.
zimzo, When Wolv mentions Army, he is not talking about the little green plastic soldiers in your bathtub.
Zimzo: What was going on for the past eight years is that you and a lot of people in this country are still alive to enjoy that strong Constitution of ours. And I will tell you from my own experience that what Holder will find in all this is a mere puff of smoke and much of that the product of his own ideologically warped mind. In the meantime, he will have burned the edges off a great deal of true patriotism and desire to take personal risks to save the lives of others. That will be your loss, Zimzo. I don’t know what it takes to get it through your head that you may be playing with your own life and walking into the ultimate negative: sauve qui peut.
You want a real dose of reality? Your man Clinton also tried to play games with the Clandestine Service. Many of the most experienced people in that service hung up their spikes in response to Clinton. Given the level of those who could elect to quit, you lost much of the starting defense and offense on a good football team and had to start playing out a tough season with your rookies and reserves. What you got was Kovar Towers, USS Cole, the embassies in Nairobi and Dar, and the real capper, 9/11, among others Over time, the team was built back again into a good performer. You want to make the same stupid mistake all over again, be my guest.
I’d hazard a guess that what they’d especially have a hard time with is when the “law” changes retroactively, and people are prosecuted or have their careers destroyed for doing what they thought was their job, lawfully, years after the fact by people who weren’t there and have a political axe to grind. Talk about armchair generals.
The same people that were running in circles on the street on 9/12 saying “The government should’ve known! The government needs to do something before they hit us again! Save us!” are now the same ones that are going to punish and harass the innocent, not in the name of “justice”, they just want to score political points.
There aren’t any new facts to discover, Congress and the Executive branch is well aware of what took place. This is only a public purging to settle some scores, and score a few points, sacrificing good and loyal people’s careers is an acceptable loss for the greater good – it’s disgusting. I’m not surprised zimzo’s a fan.
This reminds me of the 90’s when the Clinton regime destroyed the CIA and others, which led, almost inevitably, to 9/11.
Alternative viewpoint, is it possible that Obama is using this CIA investigation to stoke the fading flames of the blame the Bush administration fire ?
Lately, Obama has experienced a drastic drop in public opinion polls, and his hallmark health care reform is on life support. Could it be that by reopening this, he hopes to create a distraction from his troubles of late, and try to milk the blame Bush cow one more time ?
“The fact remains that slavery can’t flourish lacking importation.”
They do reproduce, you know.
Yup, they do, they die as well..
Healthy people, sans birth control, will generally result in an expanding population.
Dans, I have seen some commentary addressing what you suggest. With many troops still in Iraq, with the upping of the ante in Afghanistan, with the wavering on certain parts of the health reform plan such as the public option, and, in truth, with the stealthy retention of many of GWB’s policies, some believe that Obama has found it necessary to start tossing “bones” to the increasingly restive Far Left which brought him to the party in the first place. If he, however, thinks that tossing them the CIA “bone” is a good idea in the middle of a shadow war against terrorism, he is verging on being nuts. He badly needs a history lesson.
Wolv,
“He badly needs a history lesson.”
This was established many months ago..
jack, how do you define flourish ?
It has been estimated that the slave population of the south grew by 20% every decade. Is this flourishing ?
Yes.
“Alternative viewpoint, is it possible that Obama is using this CIA investigation to stoke the fading flames of the blame the Bush administration fire ?”
It’s not really an alternative viewpoint, at least to me. There’ll be an immigration “reform” plan (cough, cough “amnesty”) pushed forwards very soon, now, or some similar piece of legislation that p*sses Conservatives off. Cap and Trade is being ignored at the moment, for example – he’ll hope to divide the opposition’s energy, by having a multitude of issues open simultaneously.
His protests aside, there’s absolutely no way that Holder is doing this without the express permission of Obama, or perhaps the guy I suspect wields power much in the same way Cheney was always accused of, Rahm Emanuel.
The politics of distraction, evasion, half-truths and lies – Hope and Change, indeed.
squiddy,
“There’ll be an immigration “reform” plan (cough, cough “amnesty”) pushed forwards very soon,”
Yes, there will be, Obama has openly stated that. While they say today the public option won’t cover illegals, they have openly stated their future intent to give amnesty to the illegals.
Double speak in the first degree…