Somebody need to give Janet Clarke an award for cutting through the bullshit:

http://leesburg.patch.com/articles/clarke-outlines-metro-stance

“As a former 15-year executive in the technology industry and having negotiated multi-million dollar contracts and complex bids, it is irrational to me that the financing details of this $2 billion plus project were not visited until some of those on this current Board started asking the difficult questions”

In my opinion, it is too late. We are at the 11th hour, and if the posters here think they can cobble together a plan to present to the county to pay for this annual 30 million$ billl from MWAA – I have a bridge in Sterling I want to sell you.

There were huge gaps and assumptions over the past 10 years, there have been huge mistakes and erroneous cost analysis, the major players are undependable, questionable and for the most part – crooked – and we are trying to make this work…now? It’s too late.

I have always been amazed by how many light years in space my mind has been capable of traveling. Barbara never did deny the outer beltway on the horizon which would make sense why the metro stops at Ashburn. That would put all congested land use east of Rt. 15 and enhance the size of the Sterling ghetto. Which is exactly where all the “businesses” will reside. Have I ever told you all that I hate cities and its lifestyle? The reason I moved to Loudoun was to get away from FFX Co (which was my parents choice) so that I could be in Loudoun (which was my choice) where they had the distinction of having dotted filthy rich farms, 150 years behind the times (per 60 minutes), meth labs and outlaw bikers, hunting, fishing, a rail line for goods transport and no county aspirations of doing things any different. Just everything a growing country boy would love. Then came Yankees and city folk and we aren’t even nearing the total destruction of the county by its vision. All but the west, of course. Where the filthy rich still live and seem to have the most control over our future. This has been a nightmare for years that would rival the best Stephen King horror novel. Good thing I got a fall back plan 7 years ago and I will exercise that option in the next 2 years. I fought so hard and lost so big that all I can say is that you’ll miss me when I’m here.

Supervisor Clarks letter is so well done it deserves its own post.

She has done her homework and knows the questions to ask. Further, I am glad someone other than a handful of us is asking, If this project was so important, and in the hopper for so long, why then did they wait until now to discuss how it will get funded.

Barbara. The Opt-out is going to cost more has to stop. really. You are making the pitch that subtracting the costs associated with almost 3 miles of the project is in direct proportion to the re-design.

Think about what you are saying. Further, if you are suggesting we are in even if we want out, then why vote at all. The threat of voting yes or we will sue you and force you to pay for what we did not build is just silly.

I heard this same mindless crap in 2007 in PWcounty ( Fuller by the way was making the case, how ironic, huh, he was then working for the building industry ) on the Rule of Law legislation. PWcounty was going to be law suited back into the stone age if they enacted the legislation. They did enact the legislation resulting in zippy lawsuits, making Mr. Fuller look like the paid hack that he was. Now the same guy is the prime economic advisor to the pro rail forces. This should be a clue.

Yes, there will costs for Loudoun if this terminates at the Airport, no shit. Those costs will be a helluva lot cheaper than 3 miles into loudoun.

“give credit where credit is due (without the add on negatives to negate the positive accolade).” Too late–see the Wolf/choo choo thread.

Greg, I did not say opting out would cost more than opting in. I said it wouldn’t be free. (especially not to 772–lolol)

It remains to be seen what happens if we do indeed say “go ahead to the airport, or even 606, but we aren’t paying”.

It also remains to be seen not only what buses will cost, and parking, and so on, but whether those will be supported or vilified in their turn.

There are costs no matter which way it goes, and some of those will be to lost opportunities.

“She can vote to raise taxes on those who cannot vote for her and so can a few other supervisors.”

To me, the more interesting vote will be from the Williams/Letourneau/Buono(sp?) who will have to vote for a tax increase (and a substantial one) for their own constituents for Metro. I’m curious as to how that vote will go over. Once Metro NOW folks have to pony up their own cash, it will be a different story. Already Williams stated that he didn’t think the tax district was fair to his district.

The letter from Clarke is the best thing she has done since she has been in office. But I still don’t trust the woman or the people she hangs with. If this was going to Purcellville with lots of Purcellville folks making money she would be all for it. But while I don;t trust her at all, that is still a great letter with many great points about the boondoggle that is Metro to Loudoun.

Good try LI but I know it’s hard with all the detestment (made up word) you have stored in you about her. I just felt a credit due with no attachment may be fodder for further acceptable practices by her.

Nice segway into the new talking point Barb, which has already appreared on FB this morning and is being utter at the Chamber breakfast as I type! (Question, is there a 6 am conf call with the daily talking points?)

Yesterday’s assertion that we might, possibly get sued has been cast aside for “We can only see the future from Metro!”….. I think we have come full circle as a couple Supervisors have now latched onto the neandrethal talking points again. “We is so dumb that we kant see da futire without the help from da business folk.” Guide us to the light!

One of the best synopsis of the past 24 hours/historically of Metrogate can be read on VV:

http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/ding-doors-are-closing-matt-letourneau-boards-the-silver-line/

When one considers the NOW crowd’s arguments, one must keep in the back ot their mind that the development potential for the stations in Loudoun are roughly divided by:

Airport: 0% since it is on federal land
606: 12% some potential, but it is mostly surrounded by federal land
772: 88%…the prize

The end goal of the Chamber is to get 772 developed. That is where the money is to be made. It matters not that the best solution for the taxpayer is to terminate the line at the airport. There is no money to be made at the airport.

All NOW arguements revolve around getting Metro to 772. That station will be their most profitable.

CL, if you read previous comments you will see that Mr. Dickerson is ANTI-metro.

No 6 a.m. conference call Cmac. Do consider the possibility that when there is a brief silence from the “no” crowd, followed by a burst of identical activity, that people who are paying attention simply say “oh, so you’ve decided to say that now. Okay.” and respond.

I enjoy best the lapses into personal flight on your side, like the brief call for free rural wireless broadband, and yesterday’s “if we say no really loud, we could get it free all the way to 772″.

Won’t be hearing those again, I’m sure, because the script must be followed, in ever higher dudgeon.

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squid, I understand that people who have been here longer have paid much more in than I, since I’ve only been contributing for about 15 years now. That’s why it rubs me quite the wrong way when people who moved in 5 or 10 years after I did feel free to tell me what I have to think about Loudoun (not Cmac or Greg–don’t know when they moved in, and neither has yet used the “move out” argument on me). Someone sent an email from Ken Reid all over Dulles, Ashburn and Broad Run the day before the worksession that said the only way to pay for it was a $.21 per $100 tax on areas within 2 miles of rail, and that’s what was going to happen if we opted in.

Needless to say, it got a reaction.

However, it began to get a different one when the folks waving it like a flag offered TaxPig documents (while calling them county documents) to back up the scare tactics.

It is not inconceiveable that, especially given the tactics used by some on the “no” side throughout this process, some might think lying to constituents about a “definite” tax would create a political climate in those districts that would perhaps force the supervisors to vote against Metro, after creating a bloc of 5 that would agree to only tax in those areas. It’s surely a win-win for the people who know it’s a good idea, campaigned on it, but must throw red meat to the base. It’s ALWAYS an election year in VA, right?

The problem with that is that if the metro does yield the business benefits that expand a commercial tax base, the benefits won’t be restricted to the people paying for it.

Everyone will win on that one, except the folks paying for metro who ALSO make up the difference on deferred taxes, and land use, and everything else.

It’s easy to say I’ll never use it, but funny, the no-growthers down here often make big claims that they will NEVER patronize thus and so if the blight is built anywhere near their (by right suburban) home, but there they are in Harris Teeter at Stone Ridge every single time you happen to drop in.

Sometimes it’s a grin to imagine walking up and asking them what on earth they’re doing there.

I am hopeful on the discussion of a tax on the business land within a radius–including the as-yet undeveloped because those are the entities that would reap the most direct benefit.

I also think finding 3.5 in the county budget is worth discussion, because last I heard people were expecting more than a nickel off last time, and more than a nickle off next time. If so, we can devote 3.5 to rail, because everyone will receive the benefits of increased commercial and business revenue that would develop along with rail.

I actually like a lot of the things Matt is currently being reviled for, primarily by people who can’t vote for him.

“CL, if you read previous comments you will see that Mr. Dickerson is ANTI-metro.”

See, that’s what bothers me about the detractors….
I am not anti-metro….I’m anti-tax.

I know, I know…but it had to be said.

I think, nominally, taxing commercial and industrial property owners would politically make it more appealing

BUT

what do those numbers look like?

If it takes a 0.21 increase with a 2-mile district that is all-inclusive (residential and commercial) and then you take out the residential, what would that tax rate be?

Loudoun doesn’t have the density of Fairfax and there are fewer businesses. I don’t have th enumbers to calculate this, but we are looking at probably a 0.40 increase!! That’s a business crushing tax level.

Again, any way you run these numbers the price is too high for this Metro.

Great point, BPM. Very correct. It’s the tax I object to, not the Metro itself. I’d pay $30k for a new car…but I won’t pay $120k.

A 0.035 increase actually IS politically possible (particularly if more padding is cut from the budget, which is NOT disingenuous. Every budget is a matter of choices), because it appears that a majority of people support Metro. A majority live in the suburban policy area, and a majority spoke in favor. As with the Weintraubs doing their very best to unseat Eugene, Sterling votes for him. I don’t know how people in Lovettsville, Sterling, Cascades will get rid of Matt if his constituents support rail by a majority. Janet Clarke will have to answer to Brambleton, and she got a lot of crossover votes not only because of her hard work, but because many there do not consider themselves rural, were outraged at being carved up in redistricting, and were dead sick of Burton. If some in Lovettsville, Sterling etc could vote for her, it might cancel out the disappointment in her eastern constituency, but again, they can’t.
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HFTB, what is being discussed is not necessarily what is being disseminated in some districts, which have been mainlined a worst-case scenario from out of district.

Barbara, the allies you think you may have will disappear once you start cutting items from the budget. Look at the uproar over the teensy cuts made this year. You’ll need to cut enough to be able to add Metro and deliver a tax cut. You will make everyone unhappy and Metro will get the blame….as will those who supported Metro.

Of course, for the monied interests, it won’t matter at that point since the project would by then already be approved with no turning back.

And, it is a 50-50 split opt-out and NOW. As people learn the numbers they opt out. How many opposed Phase II a year ago? 10% maybe. How many now? Why is that? Because it is a bad deal and the more people learn about it the more are turned off by it.

Cmac, I missed the part where I said people weren’t allowed to disagree. Agreeing to disagree means we both agree that it is okay for the other to disagree, right? You still can’t vote against him, though, and it looks like that rankles. I am starting to really like the “talking point” talking point. Is it a projection exercise, where that’s about all that’s left? Okay. Do you remember telling me a few weeks ago, the first time I dared to say something counter to the crusader script, that I had lost my humor? It appears to be catching!
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David, I’m not thinking in terms of “allies” or “enemies”–that’s the group that dismisses everything anyone says that doesn’t follow the approved script, with dismissive language from what appears to be an approved script. I’m not sure though; I’ll find out when a howler arrives by owl tonight at the setting of Venus, maybe. Or when a kid comes up and bowhunts me. Or my dog, maybe.

I’m just telling you guys what is said over here where the attacks and misinformation are flying fairly thick. In some quarters, it isn’t selling any better than the whole “choo choo”/shiny object ridicule.

You believe that the split is 50-50?

Okay.

I saw polls before the Walker election that had him barely eking it out, and those exit polls were a resounding victory for Obama.

I don’t think it’s 50-50, but I do get easily distracted by shiny objects, or so I’m told.

Yes, I know there will have to be an actual cut to go below finding that 3.5. And you know what? Just like NO ONE is talking about a plan for buses, or whether they will actually be SUPPORTED once they’ve done their work (as a shiny object), as soon as something that would make that work is found, the TALKING POINT for some will still be “$1.195 isn’t good enough! I thought we elected Republicans! The rate should be $.99!”, because that’s what they say every year for the past few years.

Five bucks says so. Will you take the bet?
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Now is the time to discuss it, which was supposedly desired before there were figures and options (God, I’m starting to like that word).

Barb, How can you say I have lost my sense of humor when I just joked about carrier pigeons and The Hunger Games, dear lord lady – look in the mirror!

Who said I wanted to vote against Matt? Honestly Barb, if Matt proposed lining the streets with mud and utilizing it as a big slip and slide ttransportation project – you’d back him up.

*****Slop Fest in the East this afternoon, thus the mud reference….but I don’t have a sense of humor anymore

As with Liz’ challenge on the other thread, written tone is sometimes hard to decipher.

If it’s humor, it sounds a bit hectic, given that said humor does not respond to what I say, but asks me if I’m receiving my talking points by carrier pigeon, and suggests that we institute totalitarian games to the death in order to decide the issue.

Okay. That’s FUNNY!

(I wish it were, as it continues the negation of any other point of view, and the continued allies/enemies dichotomy that has been so very ugly about a lot of this)

Greg, that was the public hearing. Input happens every business meeting. This was THE public hearing on the item, and it was pretty lopsidedly in favor.

Bused in union thugs paid in pizza, so I hear. Over and over and over.

I was struck by the number of folks from places like Bluemont, Waterford, Purcellville who spoke in favor. If all you hear is “Opt”, it’s easy to get the impression from the sheer repetition that all of western Loudoun opposes it.

Barbara. Please focus. Words have meaning.
Is is your assertion that a Public input meeting = a referendum ?
So, then the next time a meals tax is proposed all I have to do is flood the BOS room with positive public comments and the meals tax passes, we can bypass the actual referendum process ? Come on Barbara, your not responding to what I say, you are responding to something entirly different in order to avoid factual statements.

Political Ignorance or Naivete?

Gosh Judge, I don’t know if you got the memo but your tone and joking manner can not easily be discerned. Please refrain from such utterances so that we call understand exactly what you are saying (sarcasm alert).

p.s.–”opt”ing out before a hail Mary vote triggers the cost of the potential redsign, the potential court case to make us cough something up for the Dulles station we will get “free”, and most important, puts us deeper in the hole of the place that can’t shoot straight because it’s so damned special. And then when the referendum passes, we’re right back to where we are now, but in a deeper hole after having wasted a lot of money to keep screaming.

I’m a little confused here. We bounce the dems and ind out last election because they weren’t fiscally responsible. That was the will of the people in each district who were upset over the continuous and wasteful spending. The people that replaced them got voted in by those fiscal conservatives to change the way the county does business, stop the wasteful spending in schools and other projects, cut the debt and get our house in order. Now the people who espouse fiscal conservancy are elected and instilled to take care of business but somehow their hands are tied, they feel metro is a good idea and a majority of those fiscal conservatives that voted them in feel exactly the same way? Something is not only awry but there is a bunch of lying shit going on. Now who out there feels that those who don’t want this boondoggle to go forward are that stupid and in the minority? It seems that those that are cheerleading the most are being rewarded for the effort and those that have the reigns that just can’t do the right thing (no excuses of what can and can’t be done. There is always an alternative) are going to be rewarded too. I know at whose expense this is happening but I really want to know what puppet masters are doing the rewarding. No more lies. No more propaganda. No more bullshit. And, yes, I do feel we are being fed some mis-information in these comments. I don’t care about Arlington, DC, Montgomery or Fairfax. I only care about what’s good for Loudoun. Too many “ifs” and speculation with no firm data of truth. We don’t need metro past Dulles or any debt associated with it. Period.

Exactly, Yank. I hear. alls for “reasonable” discussion but for what reason and to what end? The reason is to sway people to buy “in” to this cluster “Foxtrot” to get metro in the end. If there was reasonable discussion it would expressly point to the need (with guarentees and factual data) as well the plan IN PLACE to pay for this in a justified case. Neither of these ghosts can be seen. It has been ill conceived from beginning to now and does not have a chance to show any semblence of logic or continuity going forward.

I have an idea. I want to be well off in my retirement so if everyone in the county would support that and give me 50 cents a year for the next 30 years (subject to change as things develop) then I could be happy. No specifics here with no set monetary commitment. The reason that “I could be happy” is no guarrentee and the benefit to everyone is my possible happiness–meaning YOU get nothing unless you want to presume that I wouldn’t badger you on this blog as a possible reward. If I had money, this blog would be the nightmare I awaken from and your presumption would exit with my continual trips to far and exotic places. I see no difference between this scenerio and metro. Both are unjustified larks to satisfy someone’s selfish interests. Period. End of rational discussion.

Barbara. Let me try gain. I will refrain from telling you to focus, I will just suggest you do so, it will save you some alot of typing.
Matts assertion was ( please go watch the tape ) that there is no need for a referendum in that the people have spoken via the public input session. Got it ?
My reason for comparison to past school board public input sessions, including the one that matt just sat thru , is I heard NOONE state that since the Red Shirted Hatrick crowd was 70% that the public had spoken. You see there are two standards here.
BTW, they DID NOT cut the school budget. They cut the rate of increase. How many times must we go over that simple concept before it catches on. ?

Thanks for not saying “focus” Greg. I don’t know if I “got it”, perhaps because I’m “simple”, but let’s see if we can meet somewhere on words.

Matt saying there is no need for a referendum is not NOT knowing the difference between a public hearing and a referendum. It is saying he doesn’t see a need for one. None is required by law. Apparently a majority of the 9-0 Republican™ BoS sees no need for one either, or, as with the questions I’ve asked you several times now, there would have been a motion to do that and it would have passed. Since it didn’t there’s no referendum. I understand you want one, but there not being one is not the same thing as one being required, or Matt not knowing what one is.

Greg, re the school budget, yes, you are correct that they cut the rate of increase. That seldom happens, but we increase students every year too, and schools are mandated by law. Getting any percentage of increase to comply more rationally with any percentage of increase in student population is a realistic goal to start with.

Regardless of whether the school budget had 70% input in favor of full funding or not (and I don’t know that it did–any stats on that?), Matt and others DID campaign on getting school spending under the microscope. Just as some of them campaign ed on supporting rail, and ALL of them campaigned on economic development.

Are you trying to compare the school budget to this because any capital projects that come out of the school budget adopted have to go to a referendum, and you want one on Metro? Back to the unanswered questions: was there a motion, was it seconded, did it pass?

As to your last comment, it was you who claimed that by Matt’s logic on Metro, the school budget should be fully funded. That isn’t what he voted for.

I appreciate you not telling me to “focus” (by now telling me you aren’t going to tell me to), but “focus” doesn’t necessarily mean saying “yes Greg” to everything you throw out there, as I have also said to you before.

Some of the comparisons you’re making are not correct; they’re a stretch. Consequently I choose not to “focus” my agreement on them.

ACt, I’ve seen people say “I give up” too. They don’t, so don’t worry.

Someone said it on a Broadlands message board the other day, and a resident there responded “thank you!”. Apparently the “$.21 coming definitely to YOUR HOUSE” new fake flyer was passed out there, and landed like a lead balloon after Shawn Williams answered his constituents about it.

ACT, I’m fearing the “no” to any alternative (even if the alternative has been held up like a set of REAL free ice cream and puppies to try and kill any discussion of options on this) for what may be the same reasons you don’t like MWAA–their history.

Now, mentioning any of that will get me attacked as “focused on personality” by those who have attacked the character of anyone who disagrees with them, but the fact remains, the core of the opposition (not Cmac, not Greg) opposes every public project, and has proven in not only this endeavor but in the Ramadan campaign that they will lie to try to sway people to their side.

I won’t call it corrupt, but I will say I have absolutely no reason to beleieve them any more.

If someone makes a motion to have a referendum and said motion passes, then there will be one. And I suspect it will pass. In the process it will make for an even uglier campaign season, and will surely cause point changes in the totals columns on other races, and maybe jeopardize some, at least locally.

And then what? Well, we go right back to square one of the acrimony and arguing, but it might cost more. Not to mention what it will cost in credibility for Loudoun, if the protracted squall produces a vote strongly in favor.

I have never been one to rashly accuse, but this 2.8 mile Metro thing has Tammany Hall written all over it. I can understand and even empathize with average citizens dreaming of Metro possibly easing their commute. But, whenever you get high-level proponents pulling major development numbers and pipe dreams out of their asses without a shred of evidence and in the middle of hard times and when, only weeks short of a final answer, no one in government has a clue as to how this thing will be paid for, you have to conclude that there is a big pile of money in the immediate offing and that there are eyes on that pile. Otherwise, why the bum’s rush here? It is beginning to stink of stimulus and shovel-ready in 2009.

You summed it up Wolve.

As opposed to those who buy things under the influence of the glib tongues of the sales team. Sort of like….. well, like that time when the advice was that you can afford this beautiful house with a small down payment and a very low adjustable mortgage.

You mean NO down payment and an ARM.

Loudoun county–the endless butt of jokes for as long as I can remember. The county that allows building unhaltered. The county that has more corrupt politicians than Chicago. The “green” county. The East vs. West county. The county of free to the right people. The county that loves its school system, even if it is just above average, to the point of almost bankruptcy. The county that waves your taxes if you are the right business. That county that can’t say “no” to any shiny object. Most all the BOS continue to re-sell our county soul to the devil over and over again. We are about, and have been, as liberal as we can get. Barbara, do you really think, that in light of all this and metro, that I am going to be bothered by what consequences happen within this county during election time if we have a referendum? I don’t think so. Remember Va went liberal with the US senate TWICE and the president. Why? Sheep. What has changed in this county? Nothing. Still sheep.

Show me the money!!!!

“Loudoun county–the endless butt of jokes…”

Act, you can add electing an LCPS employee to the BOS to that list!